A repeat of my 2018 stay at the Needles Campground in Canyonlands National Park likely will have to wait until 2020/Kurt Repanshek
Editor's note: This updates with response from recreation.gov's "escalation" desk, and includes terms of contract Booz Allen Hamilton negotiated.
Securing a campsite in a national park is not always an easy endeavor, and, unfortunately, recreation.gov does not always help.
The other day I searched for an available site at the Needles Campground (aka Squaw Flat Campground) in Canyonlands National Park in southeastern Utah. This is one of the best campgrounds in the Southwest. There are just 26 individual sites set amid the glorious redrock splendor of Canyonlands' Needles District. The sites are well spaced and offer a measure of solitude you don't always find in national park campgrounds, the restrooms are well kept up and even offer wash basins to do your dishes, and the night skies are wonderfully dark for star gazing.
The trick to landing a site, of course, is to start six months before you want to visit. My bad. I waited until six weeks out. Still, using recreation.gov to get a site was akin to hitting a moving target. First there were available sites, then there weren't. When I saw three consecutive dates in early April I wanted to go after, I tried to log into the site to snag them. It didn't like my email or password, so I created a new account. Sadly, it didn't like that new account it even after it verified it:
Are you sure you have the right email and password? Please double check your email and password, and try again. You can also click the links below to sign up for an account or reset your password. -- recreation.gov
I tried calling the folks at recreation.gov...and the recorded voice told there as a 43-minute wait time. So I tried the "chat" option. After a short wait, an agent chimed in to inquire what I needed. After I explained my dilemma, I was told my log-in issues could be solved by one of their agents ... if I called the reservations number.
See where this is going?
Is this the best way to run a reservation system for a sprawling system of some 100,000 campsites spread across the National Park System, U.S. Forest Service, and U.S. Bureau of Land Management. It's a timely question to ask, as last fall the reservation system was taken over by Booz Allen Hamilton, which Outside Magazine described as a "management consultant giant..." and which no doubt demonstrated its ability to handle the job when the contract came up. Under the terms of that ten-year contract, which kicked in October 1, Booz Allen Hamilton is being paid $182 million.
Giant they might be, but are they big enough or keen enough to manage this far-flung system? Supposedly one of the requirements for landing the contract was that Booz Allen Hamilton had to offer real-time reservation status. That might explain my experience with the "now you see them, now you don't" available campsites. They come and go as folks reserve a site, and then cancel their reservation. Ok, I get it. But there's more to running a reservation system than offering a tracking system that many others in the travel and dining industries long ago mastered. Operating a system that works, for instance.
Those behind the recreation.gov's call-in reservation system realized they wouldn't always have enough agents to handle call loads, and so designed the system to allow you to leave your phone number and they'd call you back...without you losing your place in line. I took that option, and within about 10 minutes got a call ... from a recorded voice that told me an agent would be with me shortly.
While I waited, I took another spin around recreation.gov's page for Canyonlands. A huge problem is that they haven't yet loaded maps of campgrounds, at least not those at Canyonlands, and so you can't look at the site you're being offered. Is your chosen site next door to the restrooms, and so you might have more foot traffic than usual day and night? How close to trailheads is it? Is there shade? Where are the water spigots? (I would come to learn that when Booz Hamilton got the recreation.gov contract, they had to build the system from scratch. They couldn't take what the previous company was using. But still, there are scads of park maps out there, including maps of campgrounds. Shouldn't a "management consultant giant" be able to fine-tune those rather quickly? Or pay someone to?)
After sitting on hold for eight minutes, not a long time, an agent tried to help me sort out my log-in credentials. He couldn't, even after verifying my email was in their system and walking me through a password reset (not that it's complicated, but he was trying to be helpful). No luck. Instead, he said he woud have to "escalate" my issue to a higher power. But he didn't know when -- In an hour? Later today? Tomorrow? Next week? -- or how -- email? phone call? text? carrier pigeon? -- I would be contacted. He also didn't know if they worked weekends, and didn't have any contact phone numbers for me to resort to. And while he told me that, those three available nights I wanted vanished.
Not that it matters, since I can't log in to reserve them.
A tech from the escalation team called back Monday morning, roughly 24 hours after my unhappy experience. After 10-15 minutes on the phone with him, during which I shared my browser screen so he could try to diagnose the problem...he was at a loss. His suggestion, while he consulted with others, was that I create a new account once again, but with a different email address. Or I could call their reservations line and hope that I get connected with someone before the sites and dates I want vanish.
That's my recreation.gov story. What's yours?
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Comments
The redesign took away all of the campsite photos. I hope they are coming back soon, otherwise the redesign was a huge step backwards.
The article states why the photos are gone.
I am not able to figure out how to pay or follow through with the reservation on the site… Any help might you have? It’s not the first time I’ve been on the site and gotten Skunked
Thank you
Northern MN has serious recreation.gov blues right now due to the failure to launch of new system for reserving Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness permits.
http://queticosuperior.org/blog/bwcaw-permit-reservation-system-re-launc...
No problems so far for me...much better system than the old one.
I tried to save my Lifetime Senior Pass # in my profile, but it wouldn't accept it. Luckily, if I key it in at checkout, it works. Go figure...
True enough Jason, but they've had the business since Oct 1, and knew they were getting it before then....$18 million/year.
I agree that recreation.gov seems to suck more than it did before, and the inability to log in is inexcusable, even if the lack of campsite maps is merely pathetic. I don't think that there are any performance or quality of service penalties in the contract: they're actually difficult to write then enforce. In my experience, Booz Allen Hamilton is a generic government contractor, willing to bid on anything and meet the minimum letter of the contract whiole maximizing profit. Only lots of complaints might change their performance, and I don't know who to complain to.
But come on, Kurt: I expected you to have a little field notebook of the best campsites at all the parks you've camped in. At Needles I call permanent dibs on 26 if its windy & 8 if it isn't! As you wrote, there isn't really a bad site there. I tent camp so I don't need or want to tie up the big pull throughs & RV sites, and these happen to be least affected by nearby RVs with generators. I like that they've added to handicapped accessible sites since I was last there.
Pro tip: At least for Needles campground (and Willow Flat and Devil's Garden in Arches), you can use google maps, zoom in, then use street view to see the site numbers. And the BLM Moonflower campground even has 360deg views from the walk-in campsites. but perhaps not site numbers. Few FS campgrounds have google street view, although if you search for ten x campground then drag the yellow figure you'll get 1 view that shows half of why it's my favorite campground for the south rim (and the pic isn't from the good part of the campground). [The other half is that even in June you can get a campsite without a reservation around 9-10am, and the last time I was there it was 105 in the afternoon at south rim and 34 at night at ten X.] I'm interested to see if google ends up doing street view for many more campgrounds in the next couple of years.
Well,Tomp, I didn't want to give away all my favorite spots in the park system, but you nailed one of them.
That said, folks at Yosemite have announced that the permit lottery for Half Dome permits will be delayed for an undetermined amount of time due to a new contractor taken over the business. That contractor happens to be Booz Allen Hamilton.
I just discovered that Booz Allen gets all the money from the lottery system Of which single digit number of people get (90 or so percent of those lottery attempts money goes straight to Booz Allen). IF you are lucky enough to win a chance to camp/enter, THEN the money you pay goes to the park system. There is an organization called "BIG" that has an extensive article on this legal criminality (Booz Allen contributes (buys) politicians who allow the contracts to exist).
Are you familiar with the blm options or the outpost next to the park ? My wife and I run the outpost campground and store and we're continually working on improvements. Not all of our sites offer that solitude feeling, but they do offer a peaceful experience with phenomenal sunsets from your site Let us know if we can help you salvage your Needles District vacation..
I am indeed, Caleb. Years ago, when Needles/Squaw Flats was filled, I stayed at the Outpost. I awoke in the middle of the night to see a shooting star over the district. Gorgeous!
Well... what's the update?? Can you access your account? I've had absolutely no issues accessing the site last year or in the past few months
I have a lottery application in for Whitney this summer. My alternates were unable to confirm their alternate status because of some bug with the system. So they apparently expired and the system told me to select new alternates. There's no apparent way to do this online, so I fired up chat support through the website.
I waited 10 minutes with the chat window open for an agent to appear. When they did, they told me that the "can't help with permit or trip planning information" and that I should call the Inyo Permit Office for help. I inquired what they could help with, since I'm not aware of any services that Recreation.gov offers besides permit and trip planning. The agent said "I'm sorry for the inconvenience" without answering the question.
Kurt & all--
Contact your Congress-criters about how poor you think Booz Allen Hamilton's version of recreation.gov is. It shouldn't be too partisan of an issue, and a fwe might take it upon themselves to try to make the site functional, or at least thenext contract have enforceable quality of service clauses. I'll be contacting my representative.
Just tried to make reservations online for a favorite campsite. The dates were September 3rd through the 10th. According to the website I could only make reservations for the 3rd through the 4th(yesterday). No going forward 14 days from the first day available. Called and was told that option was still there, but could only be done by an agent. It's truly amazing how backward the new Rec.gov is compared to the old one.
I forgot to add this to my previous post. Tho only way I can log into recreation.gov from either of my laptops is to disable the firewall for the duration of my time on their site. I use the same computers to access bank accounts, investment firms, etc. without a hitch. Go figure..
Agree with Jerry S. I have had zero issues with the new recreation.gov and have made 13 reservations for trips between 1 March 2019 and 31 August 2019. I find it way more intuitive than the old Aspira Connect (Active Network) managed site that was 10-years behind the times when it was first installed and never improved over the 10-year duration of their contract.
We are hoping that the company gets replaced... There is no fixing it
I've tried for 8 years to book the Kelly Forks Cabin in Idaho. It's a part of the 6 month in advance bookin g through Recreation.gov. It's a seasonal cabin from mid June through September or about 100 days. You are limited to booking a max of 6 consecutive nights. I've been unsuccessful even using up to 30 devices to book at exactly 10 am EST. I've synched my time protocols, used multiple servers, all to no avail. Unlucky is what I have been told and that there are 30+ people trying to rent for every available date. So here's the real story: The same people get reservations every year and some get multiple reservations. One person actually reserved it 5 differerent times in 2019. Statistically that is impossible. How do I know? I filed FOIA requests going back to 2009 and I have all the names and have sent the data to Recreation.gov, USFS, USDA etc. I have spent 5 years complaining and trying to get answers....no one seems to want to admit the obvious.
Rick
Twice in a row I'm getting screwed trying to book a site at Many Glacier Campground. I knew it would be competitive, I learned this while booking a site at Devil's garden campground in Arches. So I prepared myself to get on the site with 10 minutes to spare & waited for the clock to count down. I actually have a timer to count down the seconds so I can hit "book now" at the exact time the sites go live. Like I said, I learned my lesson from previous experiences (I thought!)
Both times I've tried so far with Glacier I've been unsuccessful. The first time it said that the site wasn't available yet, even though it was. The second time I got a message to login into my account before booking. I was logged in. Needless to say, even though only 7 seconds went by the site was already gone. "It's a popular site!" the message tells me. No kidding.
Guess I'll be back to it again tomorrow! So frustrating. I thought Arches was bad!
I have not had issues reserving at low demand parks, but recently I tried to book a site at Many Glacier (5+ times in a row), sometimes using multiple computers and multiple devices to secure different sites to no avail. Each time I am waiting on my computer at 945 preparing to book at exactly 1000 and I have not been able to get a site. I've spoken to multiple representatives who have explained that it's 'busy' and you've been unlucky, but it is not reasonable that every day all of the sites are reserved at exatly 1000. One representative actually encouraged refreshing at 10AM which only delays your start and shows you that sites are infact reserved at 10 (which is impossible). I've also been told by reservation.gov staff that I have to use google chrome, not the app, not safari, not internet explorer, not firefox, etc. This is inappropriate for a government site. 3 times I've hit book now at 10 and my browser and app said 'booking' and 'order details' respectively but then kicked me off with no reservations. While I have not made FOIA requests like the earlier writer who indicated that the same people get multiple reservations at competitive sites every year for the past 5 years, it certainly seems that some unfair practice is in place for high demand National Park facilities. I recommend moving to a lottery system with published listing of names for site reservations each year so that there is some transparency, and campers don't have to reserve more days than necessary in order to get sites in their National Parks. I've also learned of a pay website 'reserve.wanderinglabs.com', 'campnab.com' and Robert Hansen's free BOT software for finding campsites. While they claim not to reserve the site for you, its only a short put from there to assume they are also using them to reserve campsites. Perhaps we need to drive the site to include use of CAPTA image recognition or some other bot proofing technology so as not to cheat others out of visits to our national parks.
I have my finger on "click" right at 8 am when the site I want opens. Click. Too late. Every time. Every morning. Who is clicking faster than I am? How is it possible? I have this suspicion that there is a backdoor to some of these sites which a computerized clicker is grabbing, kind of like those bid snatching services you can employ for ebay.
I urge you to file a FOIA request for the information (names) of past bookings. You will be surprised, I was. The system is rigged..... The NPS knows it, the USFS knows it, and Recreation.gov knows it. And just keep in mind that these are public lands that are intended to have access that is fair for all, not just those that know how to scam the system. Stay on it, contact the NPS, USFS and your congressional delegation. The system has to be changed.
Rick, can you explain a little more? Rigged how?
Not disagreeing, just don't understand what you are saying.
By rigged I mean that there is something hapening outside the "fair and equal access" that they claim. Recreation.gov runs the reservation system based on parameters that they are given. The local property managers (USFS, NPS) have access to controlling the system. That being said I have data for one particular cabin going back to 2009. Prior to securing that data I tried everything possible to be the quickest at pushing the button at 10 am EST. Nothing worked, including syncing server time protocols to Recreation.gov servers. After hearing all sorts of anecdotal stories of the same people getting reservations every year I pushed the envelope and began inquiring with various USFS supervisors and Recreation.gov personnel, all to no avail. Then in 2018 I filed the FOIA requests and started analyzing the names and the rumors were verified. Same people every season, some as many as 5 times in a season! The season is June 15th to Sept. 30th at this cabin or approximately 100+ days. One person actually booked 5 reservations totaling 30 days! I have written countless emails and I can tell you that it still is happening. Rigged, of course it is. How else can you explain the same people gettng it. It's statistically impossible. Bots? Who knows but if it was bots then with multiple bot programs out there why would only these same people be getting the cabin reservations? I suspect that there is much more to this cabin rental then we imagine. I have the names of the renters from the FOIA requests but the addresses are redacted so one can only imagine if they are connected to someone that has some pull. Time will tell.
In the mean time the system administrator is Rick DeLappe of the National Park Service who runs Recreation One Stop Program of which Recreation.gov is connected. If you are frustrated let him know. He testified before a congressional committee in 2016 and had nothing but glowing things to say about Recreation.gov..... Here's a snippet: (Read the full report that you can get online https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-114hhrg23482/html/CHRG-114hhrg2...)
Hearing held on May 24, 2016..................................... 1
WITNESSES
Mr. Joe Meade, Director, Recreation, Heritage, and Volunteer
Resources, U.S. Forest Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture,
Accompanied by Rick Delappe, Program Manager, Recreation One-
Stop, National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior
Oral Statement............................................... 3
Written Statement............................................ 6
EXAMINING THE FUTURE OF RECREATION.GOV
This was Mr. DeLappe's closing statement
I would like to say that, you know, Recreation.gov is
probably one of the best programs in the government. We get to
work with fun, and we love--the people that work on our staff
are outdoors folks, are passionate about this job. We want to
make it right, and the way we want to do that is we want to
engage with the end users, the States, the local communities to
make sure that we're building a product that suits their needs,
not ours.
--------
I have had a much different experience with the system, along with many others. Once again these are federal lands that should be made accessible to all not just the few that have figured out a way to manipulate the system.
I will continue to pursue this unfairness, not for my own personal gain, but so that everyone will have the same opportunity to enjoy these national treasures. Stay tuned....
RickF
NH
RickF, I know without a doubt the system is rigged. I live in Oregon, and I have talked to so many people that are frustrated with the system because there is never any availability for campsites when booking even six months in advance. When I called Recreation.gov, I was told that once someone has made a reservation, they can block out the next 13 days (even if those dates are not within the rolling availability dates). That alone should never be allowed. The window for summer camping enjoyment is so short as it is and if people are allowed to get 14 days at once, that makes it difficult for others to get a reservation. But even with these 14 day reservation block, still something doesn't add up. Here it is 6 months ahead (Feb) and yet the entire month of July and August and half of September are already reserved at many of the mountain lakes and the Oregon coastal campgrounds. If I were able to do the research, I'm almost betting it is one or two people who have figured out how to reserve several sites.
When we have driven through some of these fully reserved campgrounds, we see that every site has a reserved sign, and yet so many of those campsites are empty. When talking to the camphost and inquiring about all the sites sitting empty when familites could be enjyoing them, we were told that the those sites "were paid for already" and that was that.
It looks like our national parks and forests have turned into a mega corporation and profit is the only goal. I think it is time to start some sort of petition and make noise to change this rigged system that clearly is not working us. Your post was very helpful in that it gave the names of those responsibile for this mess. I now have a person to target my frustrations and will be contacting Rick DeLappe. If enough people voice their concerns maybe we can go camping with our families again.
P.S. I don't give up easily!
Most bookings on the day sales open are by resellers who are using bots.
Surely the contractor can employ software to detect and prevent this.
I have never seen any campsite, cabin, backcountry permit or cave tour "resold" anywhere online. Has anyone else?
Might tour companies be using this technology for thier private clients? Thus one would never see individual sites or tours being "resold"....
Our family vacation was cancelled the day before we were to arrive at the campsite of Holly Bay in Kentucky. We reserved and paid for our week long vacation months in advance. Its our annual lake vacation. We also rented a camper to be delivered with no refunds. We were emailed confirmation that we did not need to do anything if our reservation had some days which were closed due to covid 19. Our only day was the first day, so we kept our reservation for the rest the same, since we were told by recreation.gov all is well. Then whammy, the day before we were to leave for the trip, we were told by other family members that we better check our reservation because something has gone terribly wrong with the website reservations, they were all cancelled by recreation.gov and resold to someone else, that day. I will update this tragic situation as it unfolds. Needless to say we are devastated, with our vacation ruined and loss of money
We had to leave a week early at a National Monument back in June. Have tried ever since to get a refund. Can't get the recreation.gov people on the phone. Had a 5 hour wait time on chat when I gave up. That is not a typo FIVE hours.
Finally got them this week on chat- they said they can't tell me the status of the refund and told me to call the National Monument. Which I did and got a very helpful gentleman who looked and said they never got the refund request from back around June 29. Sigh. He suggested I resubmit it.
Well guess what, you can't request a refund after more than 7 days of the reservation have elapsed. BUT- the phone system has an option to talk to an agent about a refund. So when you select that option via your phone keypad, ie press 2, it then switches to using voice prompts. So when it asks me to say "refund" or "status" I can say either one and NOTHING happens it keeps asking me to say it. I tried at least a dozen times.
Update to my post above- I did finally receive my refund from recreation.gov thanks to the very helpful NPS employee. I bet I spent a good 8 hours on this over weeks.
I think the whole system has to go. I have been trying to make reservations for camping using the six month out window (which is rediculous in itself). Every campground that I go to make a reservation is book the whole month beyond the "window of availability" dates. When calling Reservation.Gov, I was told that one can book a campsite beyond the "window of availability". There are folks playing the system, reserving whole blocks of sites and making no campspites available for people wanting to just take their kids out for a two day campout. It is almost impossible to be spontaneous anymore with camping. So, here is what I think needs to happen. The Reservation.Gov site needs a huge makeover. I feel only the group sites should be reservable in advance, and only 10% of the regular camp sites should be able to be reserved, and the remaining 90% of any given campsite shoud be First Come, First Served.
The system is making a ton of money. They charge fees to book, and fees to cancel. I'm sure the US Forest Service is paying huge amounts of money to this 3rd party system. I think we need to speak to our state representatives to start the process of getting rid of this ugly system. Who is with me?? Shouldn't our national forest recreational sites be open for enjoyment to all?
I can't get recreation.gov to remove a hold on a Visa card or state the reason for it. I have communicated with 6 people and none are competent/interested/authorized to solve any problem that you can't do yourself with their ineffective help menu.
I have data going back to 2009 and will have more data come this October when the FOIA request is filed for the 2021 season. My pleas have fallen mostly on deaf ears as no real changes have been enacted with the exception(this year) of limiting the number of nights you can stay in a season. We'll see if that holds true this year. Lottery system is the only fair way to allot these popular cabins and sites. It can be done easily. It's frustrating but you have to stay on it. Too many complain but give up when they are shuffled to the next person and the next person..... Just remember these are our lands and they are equal access for all of us.......
I hate the recreation.gov site with all my heart. The owner of the site must be bilking of millions from us.
Just had to pay an $8 fee to reserve a $15 campsite.
More than 50% of the item cost added in fees? This is like dealing with TicketBastard.
And for WHAT, exactly? I didn't have a better customer experience than I had with all the other websites where I reserved a campsite and didn't pay confiscatory reservation fees.
Indeed, I'd say NOT paying those fees provides a better customer experience.
In conclusion, fark Booz-Allen, but also particularly fark Ag Sec'y Sonny Perdue for selling out the American public to big GOP donors like Booz-Allen.
Big GOP donors?
https://www.opensecrets.org/political-action-committees-pacs/booz-allen-...
https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/booz-allen-hamilton/totals?cycle=A&id=D...
Maybe they should limit the amount of days one can reserve a site to 1 week per Campground per month!
I'm tired of visiting Campgrounds that were totally blocked out for the weekend only to find 1/2 the sites empty all weekend! I'm sure this is hurting the their finances and probably why the maintenance has gone down hill in recent years.
These people that abuse the system by reserving a month and then canceling or modifying their reservations are ruining a good time for others!