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Comments
Wandering Wtiness -
What are these "other reasons" you refer to?
Can you explain what leads you to believe that the tree fell naturally?
Further. This is one story. Are there other stories that we cannot see that it serves in collusion with to create confusion?
"But why? Is the real story." Please, again, explain this. There is a definite feeling that you're holding back. Unleash the power of your keyboard - let us all know what's going on! THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW.
But really, don't respond. It's not needed. There's no conspiracy here. It's a National Park with protected lands and wildife. People are treating it poorly. End of story.
There is nothing at all that excuses anyone disrespecting the park rules, regulations or restrictions, and the total disregard and lack of respect for a magnificent park and the ancient Joshua trees! If there was a way to catch these perpetrators, they should have to be responsible for not only helping restore the areas they disturbed, but pay an appropriate fine for cutting trees in a National Park, which I think is a sacrilege!!! Shame on all of you who came into the park when it was closed! Unfortunately you probably won't be made to be held responsible for your insensitivity and stupidity, but you should!!!
Kara - Defend the President? He doesn't neeed defending, except against false accusations. What legislation did he veto that resulted in the closing of the government?
Answer - NONE.
Who voted down legislation that would have funded the government? The Democrats.
Whether the Parks should be open is arguable, particularly the ones that might have particularly sensitive areas (whose bright idea was it to close the gates when it was obvious people would drive around). But whether the Parks should be open or not is totally irrelevant to who is responsibile for the shut down. The President is certianly no more responsibe and arguably less so than Schumer and Pelosi. The latter two are the ones that actually voted for closure. Trump has taken no official action to do so.
The only thing keeping the government closed is Trump demanding that taxpayers pay for his wall instead of Mexico. If you are not aware of that, PLEASE turn the channel.
You need to check your facts. The House and Senate both passed a bill to keep the government open and it gave money for the wall. The president even agreed to it until Fox News criticized him for settling for less than what he wanted. Trump then refused to sign the bill (he had already agreed to sign) to fund the government unless they gave him all the money he wanted for his wall. Trump is the one who shut down the government by not signing the bill. The House has passed several bills to reopen the government, but Senator McConnell refuses to let those bills even come to the Senate floor because "the president won't sign them anyway". That is not how our government is supposed to work. He should bring them to the floor for debate and vote and then send them to the president to sign or veto. If he vetoes, then it goes back to the Senate where they can vote to override the veto and open the government.
I agree that picture appears to show a tree that has been down for a while. The "cut" portion appears to be weathered and covered with debris from the ground rather than appearing fresh and uinform in color. Additionally, it also appears that the top portion of the plant continued living for a while as evidenced by the phototropism which has apparently taken place while the plant was dying. In smaller more herbaceous plants, phototropic effects are more immediate, but given the woody nature of these trees, I suspect it would take more time than has yet transpired.
But what the heck do I know: that picture is not very clear.
There are no wood chips anywhere. What did they shop vac it up? How do you know they cut this tree down to make a road if they didnt even move the tree out of the way. Were they planning on removing that stump? Stumps in the middle of a road are a pretty bad idea. It really looks as if it would of been easier to just go around the tree. Also, someone cutting down a tree would have been doing his work from near the tree, that dirt doesn't look like some was standing there axing down a tree.
this is why we can't have nice things...
Yeah, there are a bunch of really stupid people who like to drive fast off road and screw whatever they destroy. We call them morons.
It is vert obvious that tree was NOT cut. I'm at JT on a weekly basis and many of the trees die and eventually fall as this one did.
I have cut a lot of lumber in my lifetime with both hand saws, chain saws and hattchet/axes. That tree doesn't look like it was cut down by any of thoes tools. And there is no sawdust around the base of the tree. Joshua trees are fragile to begin with and sometimes they will Not survive for some reason or another... Wheather, a animal ect. If there are trees cut with a chainsaw then at least show us one. Any place I travel to I always leave it cleaner than it was when I got there.
And the campsite in the photo looks fairly tidey, Not trashed like they make it out to be.
How bout pushed over by a vehicle ? Thats what I see here. As per the campsite : It doenst matter how 'nice' it looks , it is in an out of bounds area where it is illegal to camp. There have been many instances of people driving into designated Wilderness areas and camping trashing the area i.e leaving garbage etc . just because you dont see these photos in the article doesnt mean its not happening . I side with the Rangers on this because I know J-Tree NP very well and have seen the abuse even when the park is 'open'.
Pushed over by a vehicle? And then they disguised the tire track? Have you been in JT. Even walking on that ground leaves marks.
Too bad, they didnt get stranded and die from hypothermia.
Off roaders are scum and this proves it.
If the park personnel can't handle the vandals, the local law should protect the park. It's disgraceful that these unusual trees are being vandalized.
Willing to bet money that the so-called "reporter" was the one who cut down the tree.
it looks like a brittle tree some idiot hit with a four wheeler
So the direction given was to keep the parks open with essential personell. It is pretty clear someone didn’t follow those orders or grossly underestimated the staffing needs. I’m still waiting to hear who made those decisions. The media would have you blame trump but I doubt he made the staffing decisions. Were they given a budget to operate within, a head count? Most importantly, who is “they”? Who made the call as to what is essential? The Park superintendents?
So, if the shutdown lasts long enough, there will be no Joshua trees left and the only thing left to mark the location of the previous national park will be a huge pile of crap. This is what happens when you let humans into an area without stifling their destrusting tendencies with severely restrictive monitoring.
Well - that's not quite it. Certain plants can be legally collected, such as mushrooms or edible berries in many parks. Backcountry campers are allowed to collect downed/dead wood for making fires, but it's generally assumed they'll be from non-endangered trees. For example, the rules in Yosemite is that firewood isn't allowed to be collected in Yosemite Valley except within campgrounds.
I can't imagine that it's legal to collect parts of downed Joshua trees for firewood though.
This is not a trump problem but a problem of disrespect For others, authority, and property.
To y_p_w
I've been to over 40 natl parks in the West (mostly) and I have yet to see any NP regulation/policy to allow picking up firewood. Period! Perhaps you should get aquainted with the policies. You must be confusing with prov parks in Canada > totally different set up and rules.
Way to go, "Knowingness". The first day you arrive in the neighborhood you start off by challenging the ethics of the publisher and founder of our little website.
Wild Places--
"Essential Personnel" are determined by guidance from OMB and DOI, with park-specific plans approved and in place before any individual shutdown. Basically, a few LE rangers are essential personnel, under the safeguard human life and protect resources (vandalism) exception. And a skeleton of the chain of command (a couple per region) are declared essential so that they can spread the word after a shutdown ends, and possibly respond to unforeseen events. No one in basic park operations can be labelled essential: not facilities staff doing restrooms, trash, etc., nor VUAs collecting entrance fees, nor interp rangers interacting with the public. But also, no one involved with the "unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations" mandate is essential when it comes to furlough: not the folks actually doing vegetation or wildlife management, not the science folks helping inform long-term resource management. Those are the rules on essential persnnel; the order was then given to keep the parks open as much as possible with only those personnel. [Parks that close gates or doors at night are still to remain closed for the duration of the shutdown: again, not the superintendent's call.] If essential vs non-essential was determined by what has to happen immediately to meet the NPS mission vs what can be delayed until the government is funded, a very different mix of personnel would be considered essential.
I know of one park superintendent who is fighting to get some natural resource staff declared essential to prevent long-term or permanent degradation of specific park resources independent of whether there are visitors in the park, and there's another superintendent I sure hope will step up and at least make that argument. I doubt that they'll succeed (unless the shutdown lasts several more months), but I think that argument needs to be put down in writing, and we need to see how far up the chain it goes (NPS region, NPS WASO, DOI, OMB/OPM).
Sad that there are those who value nothing, respect nothing an give nothing to society.
I finally got to visit Joshua Tree National Park in October of last year and I was so impressed by it's beauty and tranquility. I'm sick thinking it has been trampled and damaged during this shutdown! What the h*ll is wrong with people! Why must they behave like savages? I hope Cap Rock area was not damaged! Long live the spirit of Gram Parsons!
These people have no respect. They act like they were raised in the wild by wolves.
Yeah, this makes a lot of sense, punish us law abiding folks for the acts of a few bozos.
That tree does not look like it was cut down but more like it was rotten and the wind blew it over. Where's all the sawdust or chips from an hatchet? B.S. story in my opinion
So saddened by the destruction to Joshua Tree Nat'l Monument. My heart goes out to it's protectors.
Disgusted by the remarks of callous persons defending a failing government and calling this vandalism "fake news".
People who do this are not looking for attention it seems; they do this in the dark or when no one's around. They must be mentally unstable and need help, like in a jail, prison or institution.
This is just another example of the new dogma in American Society. Entitlement! "Gimmie, Gimmie, Gimmie. I deserve it!
Vandalism with the trees and restrooms. The pic of the illegal campsite sickens me. If those bastards wanted to be back with nature, they should of realized during this time, "getting back to nature" means helping nature by bringing a roll or ten of large trash bags, cleaning supplies or even a broom and helping out! They could almost say they were part of history.
The problem is 20 entrances. Yellowstone (over 2 million ac-size of RI) has 5 points of entry, as does Yosemite. Common sense would limit entry points and 4 wheeling to a restricted area.
look, we should just be respectful of nature &
the world we live in regardless of shutdowns,
laws, & eyes keeping watch.
how can I help? I have many people at my disposal to clean up. All I need is direction!
If that tree was cut down where are the axe marks/chips or saw dust if chainsawed?
It says Joshua trees (plural) were cut down to make roads (plural). Dismissing the story because one picture of one tree (appearing “dead” to some) is ridiculous. Making new roads into protected areas is not excusable either.
Looks like we to build a wall around the park...
So the park is operating witth open borders? There shouldn't be any problem with that. All are welcome.
For those remarking about how tidy the campsite looks in the photo and that that somehow makes it okay to camp anywhere within park boundaries, I ask you:
Do you see those tire-tracks? Those tracks are new and I can't help wondering at what spot the drivers left a legal road, how far the campers drove through pristine desert to get there and how many other drivers followed their lead. Etc.
And for those arguing that this down tree looks like it was already dead, you obviously have no real knowledge of joshua trees. Their trunks are plenty funky! I've had trees on my property that I thought had given up the ghost only to have them bloom and offshoots grow from that.
Not wood chips? No saw marks, no ax marks? Pushed over?
Acquaint yourself with this before accusing anyone else of not knowing what they're talking about. It's up to individual park policy.
I can't believe that people are defending cutting down vulnerable species in a fragile environment. America has too many stupid, horrible people. Btw, Joshua 'trees' are not actually trees. They're yuccas that take a long time to get that big.
Does the park (or any of the CA Natl Parks) need more volunteers to help with clean-up? If so, how do I get involved? I live in Los Angeles and would be up for helping over the 3-day weekend.
Where are the wood chips ?
I saw that Amazon Smile can be used to support your efforts and I made use of your add on your page to learn more and try to help a bit. Many Thanks and a lot of Love to you for all of your continued efforts!
Bryan and all the other "experts" who think there should be sawdust or wood chips or that's a dead decayed trunk--
That is, in fact, about what a feshly fallen or felled Joshua Tree looks like. Joshua trees aren't _woody_ trees with rings like you might think of from elsewhere. They're yuccaa (Yucca brevifolia) that can grow to 50-70' tall in some areas. Like palms, they don't have secondary growth (annual rings) with the trunk getting wider with age. Yuccas & Agaves are more related to lillies than to pines and firs, let alone oaks or hickories.
https://www.calflora.org/cgi-bin/species_query.cgi?where-calrecnum=8375
If you click on Calphotos and scroll through the images, you'll see some images of what older weathering dead Joshua Trees look like.
Based on my experience cutting down a different species of yucca, they're so fibrous, chips don't snap off when using a sharp axe let alone hatchet. After a few cuts that don't really open a kerf or felling cut, you can push it over and have it snap. The fibrous composition requires tension on it to keep it from binding a chainsaw, so again, only a partial cut then snapping. So from just the photo, I can't distinguish pushed over by a vehicle, pulled by a hammock, or cut by axe or saw then pushed over.
Luke-- You can't take one from the park, or from most of the BLM California Desert Protected Area, but you can buy them legally in many nurseries, and collect seeds in areas around Las Vegas.
Sure. While there certainly are threats to the health of the species, currently Joshua trees aren't listed as a state or federal endangered/threatened species. You note of course that it's illegal to take plants from certain protected areas. It would also be illegal to take a plant on someone else's property without permission. Here's the complete list of state/federal protected plant species in California, and no yucca is listed:
https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx?DocumentID=109390&inline
I don't say this or anything else to indicate I approve of destroying trees (especially in an area where they're supposed to belong to all Americans), but in these comments I've seen certain statements that are patently false. Statements such as firewood isn't allowed to be collected in any national parks, or that the Joshua tree is an endangered species and legally protected plant as such. I think we can all be passionate about our feelings for what happened here without making stuff up like Trump does on a daily basis.
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