This NPS photo shows some artifacts included in the Lenape exhibit now on display at the Ellis Island Museum.
A new exhibit at Ellis Island National Monument draws attention to a seldom-noted fact. When Henry Hudson discovered New York Harbor 400 years ago last September 11, Native Americans were already there. They were the Lenape, aka Lenni Lenape (“the true people”). The Lenape homeland included not only the area now occupied by New York City, but also a large territory that extended between the Delaware and lower Hudson Rivers and included all of New Jersey as well as parts of New York, Pennsylvania, and Delaware.
The Lenape (pronounced Leh-NAH-pay) fared well for a while after European contact, profiting from the fur trade, but the ensuing centuries saw their fortunes take a bad turn. Crowded out by settlers and ravaged by infectious diseases, the depredations of hostile tribes, and other calamities, the Lenape saw their numbers dwindle and their once-large territory whittled to tatters by treaties. Finally, most of the remaining Lenape were gathered up and removed to the Oklahoma Territory in the late 1860s. Today, most Lenape descendants live in Oklahoma, but there are also scattered populations in Wisconsin, Kansas, Ontario, and in the Middle Atlantic states where the traditional homeland lay.
“Lenape: Ellis Island’s First Inhabitants” is the title of the new exhibit telling the story of “the Lenape people’s experiences from their earliest known presence in the area, through their fateful encounter with Henry Hudson, past their removal from their ancestral homeland to their present-day communities in Oklahoma and Wisconsin.”
The exhibit integrates a variety of materials, including prehistoric artifacts, antique books, maps, archival photographs, traditional Lenape clothing and crafts, ceremonial objects, illustrations, paintings and dioramas, bronze sculptures, and documentary films, that create a historical narrative. These materials are combined with quotations on a wide variety of subjects by traditional Lenape.
The museum staff at Ellis Island worked tirelessly with exhibit curator David M. Oestreicher, Ph.D, using the content generated by him to design and develop the exhibit. Their contributions in this area also included the graphic design for the exhibition as well as editing of the text provided for length and accessibility and incorporating suggestions from one of the Delaware tribes, the Stockbridge-Munsee Community.
They also worked with Oestreicher and curatorial consultant Karen Frederic to reorganize the exhibition to fit within the galleries and have a coherent thematic structure. Museum staffers assisted in the selection of artifacts, developed two interactive computer kiosks that will enable visitors to access supplemental content, located additional images to illustrate text, and installed the exhibit.
“Lenape: Ellis Island’s First Inhabitants” can be viewed through January 10 in the third floor galleries of the Ellis Island Museum, which is located in the refurbished Main Building.
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Comments
Thanks for this interesting information. Growing up in central New Jersey, we often heard about the Lenni Lenape. Indeed, I remember people finding arrowheads along the Manalapan River in my hometown of Spotswood. That said, it's very sad to learn their fate.
Greetings islandpaddler,
We "Lenni-Lenape" people are still around. Don't count us out just yet. There are hundreds of thousands of us from coast to coast. We are not extinct! Far from it! There were about thirty-eight tribal groups of us from coast to coast! We all spoke Algonkin, but unfortunately, we all speak English now! Gee, wonder how that happened?
The ones in New Jersey were the Unamis (Turtles). They got stuck with the white man word of "Delaware", not an Indian word at all!
Ken Lonewolf
Shawnee Wisdomkeeper
Thanks for the positive feedback, islandpaddler. Traveler is sometimes taken to task for leaning too heavily to the Native American side when reporting on issues involving the parks. That's not the case here, of course. Anyone can see that the Lenape deserved better treatment than they received.
Thank YOU! we are indebted to those who lived here before us, and I hope we will slowly learn to embrace their values with regards to the Earth and Animals. I am grateful for the angle you present. We have so very far to go, to return to harmony with Nature. We have made quite a mess, but I think the damage is not irreparable, and we have a chance yet. The movement grows-- slowly, but change must come, and it does.
I'm all for change that brings human systems into sustainable balance with natural systems. Today we treat the earth pretty much like we think there's a spare in the trunk.
Leni Lenape means, “Pure, abiding with Pure.” [Reiter T. Sherwin, The Viking and the Red Man, Vol 1, p.168.]
The “Pure” means pure as in being a Christian. The Lenape ancestors had been Christians for 350 years before they walked across frozen Davis Strait to become the Lenape, the Mahigan, and the Shawnee. [See www.frozentrail.org ] Click on DOWNLOADS > iTEMS #7 or #8
The migration of the Leni Lenape is recorded in the oldest True American History.
Hmmm,
For as long as I can remember, Lennie Lenape was a word described to mean "Original People". I dont know who put this meaning forth, but It seemed to make sense, as they were considered "the Grandfather" of several other Algonquin Nations.
I suppose off-shoots, who moved further away in search of food and hunting territory.To suggest "pure People" perhaps is in line with original people. To suggest pure means Christian, raises some questions. Were pagans then considered not pure? Did the early vikings who inhabited America follow the christian religion at all? Were they not only pretty much abandoned in Greenland by everybody including the church? In the course of several hundred years would they not lose any Christian teachings they once had, and as they blended and had contact with other natives here and go with more natural beliefs which focused on their survival? Just questions, not neccessarily meant to differ on any opinion or propositions. Yours in the search of truth and history.
Ron (Gunn) Goebel
Thank you for your comment, Mr. Paine, but Leni Lenape does not mean "pure, abiding with pure." It means "Ordinary People". While there are many Lenape Christians today, historically, we were never Christians! We pre-date Christianity by 13,000 years! Many Lenape & their descendants do not support the Bering Strait theory, believing our Creation Stories that we have always been here in the east. The link you site is erroneously skewed. to support their own theories. If you would like correct research regarding my People, I recommend the late Dr. Herb Kraft, & Dr. David M. Oeistreicher. We are aware there are many published and Internet sites with incorrect information. I, and others, have been working for many years regarding this, but if one refuses to correct their mis-information, there is not much we can do. I am Lenape, of Six Nations Reserve, Ohswekan, Ontario Canada, & a Lenape Historian, Consultant, Artist, Educator & Storyteller.
I have attended this wonderful exhibit & am happily acquainted with Dr. Oestriecher. I was honored to recently be able to welcome Lenape descendants from OK. & KS. and guide them through this exhibit. I highly recommend viewing it before it is replaced by another. Dr. Oestreicher is working on obtaining a permanent home for this exciting & accurate exhibit, and I hope it will be soon.
Welcome to the discussion, Cathy. A good discussion results in better understanding for all.
I am interested to know who your authorities were, what evidence they had, and the logic they used to convince you that Leni Lenape means “original people.”
My primary authority is Reider T. Sherwin. He grew up on an inland off the coast of Norway. The Island people spoke Old Norse. When he came to America, he was surprised that he could understand the Indian place names on the road and tourist signs.
For evidence he collected data from 18 translators, who had compiled word lists from 25 Algonquin speaking tribes.
His logic was that if he could find words from at least two tribes that sounded the same and had similar meanings, then he would try to compare them with an Old Norse phrase. During over 18 years of study, he found over 15,000 comparisons, which he compiled into eight volumes of the Viking and the Red Man. In Volume IV he wrote “the Algonquin Indian Language is Old Norse.”
When I use Sherwin’s comparisons, I can decipher over 85% of the Algonquin witten words I find, both ancient text and attempts by modern Leni Lenape, who spell phonetically on the Internet.
In my second comment in this blog I explained how I used Sherwin to discover that Leni Lenape meant the “pure, abiding with the pure” and how their fore fathers were the “Noosh”
Bob, the moderator, has electronic copies of the pages. I request that he send copies of those pages to you.
Until someone provides me with evidence that 8000 of Sherwin’s comparisons are not valid, I will continue to believe that the Leni Lenape means “pure, abiding with the pure,” where the “pure” is in the same sense as the Puritans were “pure.”
When I give my speeches to audiences I use this patter:
“The Leni Lenape sold land to William Penn, so the Quakers would have a place to live.
“The two peoples lived together for 40 years without a major violent incident.
“The Puritans hung Mary Dwyer and many other Quakers.
“The Leni Lenape was more pure than the Puritans.
“SOMEBODY should tell that STORY!
very interesting i stumbled on your info by searching forest finns emigrating to new jersey and their relations with the lenape.my family were swedes but being short black haired something was amiss. my cousin could not tell whether her dna was native american or aboriginal european like sami of the finland sweden peninsula so your discovery of frozen pathway from greenland during the mini iceage makes perfect sense they very well may bve of the same original stock'
Thanks for the feedback, Myron. The map and related information at that website you've referenced are very interesting. As to the meaning of the term Lenni Lenape, well, I'm just going to step out of the picture and let others decide the mater. I just don't know for sure. There are around three dozen separate languages in the Algonquian language family and I find every single one of them confusing. Sources I've consulted carry interpretations of Lenni Lenape (variously spelled Leni Lenape) ranging from true people to pure people to real men to pure men to original men. I suspect that if I had chosen to use the term "pure people" in my article I would have caught flak from people championing other translations. Again, thank you for your comment and the additional information. You've convinced me that the story of the Leni Lenape migration is something I should know more about.
Bob,
I was confused about the Leni Lenape name in the beginning. The “true,” “real;” and “original” people labels came from our Euramerican ancestors, who had difficulty describing a “pure” person. Especially because our ancestors brain washed each other into believing the natives had no religion. My Shawnee and Leni Lenape authorities insist they behave more like Christians than Euramericans do.
Then I found Reider T. Sherwin. He took word lists from 25 Algonquin speaking tribes and combined them. In the Viking and the Red Man, Vol. 1, Page 158 & 159 he lists all those names you and I found. He shows that the Norse “aa bye” turned into “ape.” In America and abide in English. So the end of the name definitely means “abide with.” Norse and Algonquin syntax is different than English so the “Len” leads the “ape.”
The letters “R” and “L” are formed in the mouth by almost the same mechanics. So “R” and ”L” are often interchanged by people living in different times and spaces. There is the Powhatten Renape Museum and the Lenape High School, both in New Jersey. Whether the word is “Renape” or “Lenape” the ancestors were “Leni Lenape” and Sherwin recorded that they called their fore fathers “Noosh” [Norsk].(pg 130).
“Len” means “pure” because “Len” morphed from “Hrein” in Old Norse. “Ren”and “rein” still means “pure” in modern Norwegian. Before the Little Ice Age a Catholic Bishop built the cathedral in Greenland. He named the fjord and the island at the mouth of the fjord, “Hrein.’
I encourage you to honor the Leni Lenape, who have endured so much of EurAmericans actions caused by misunderstanding. Please use the true definition, “the pure, abiding with the pure.”
I will send you the two pages from Sherwin defining the Leni Lenape and the pages defining the “Noosh” fore fathers.
Fascinating stuff, Myron. I'll be sure to keep that info and your recommended translation in mind when writing about the Leni Lenape.
For your information to all there is no R in most native languages exept for word borrowed from languages spoken in Europe.
Claude Aubin Wabanaki also Bemdynick .
I forgot to mention . According to the migration charts done on eastern Algonkin birch scrolls and the knowledge provide on the Wampum belts holograms connected with the stars and our constellation, the migration of my people came from an island in the atlanctic ocean called Atlantisaalso called in dakota Mdewakantatonwan also called Midewin by the other Algonkin tribe. The Mayans clain the same island . In Ica Peru there is a pyctoglyph which was thought to be over 50,000 years and on it there is a map wich identified north america , south america and a large island in the Atlancitic ocean . It is also said that the language of the nations of the Wabanaki confederacy are related linguistically to the Egyptians. We do find Wabanaki hieroglyph that compare to Egyptians ones .
There is so many evidence found in craft and symbols and ceremonial ground found also on our territory or in Crete.
According to the scrolls and pictographs done by my ancestors the migration of our people went from east to west and not from the Groenland straight in the north. The one that came from that passage were Asian descent and are now called the Inuit. They have no connection with the southern population
As for the Aboriginal people of the west cost and south america many of them came from the Mu island in the pacific ocean .
Scrolls ,ceremonial keys languages and Wampum belts are just some examples.
Wampum belts are know to be cerebral microchips for the best computer in the world , the human brain . They are the helpers to retrieve information in space- time continuum rather than space and time .
Claude
Claude wrote:
Now I'm prompted to inquire whether we have wampum belts on display in our national parks together with information about their real functions as "cerebral microchips", not just their provenance.
Bob.
Grandfather Commanda of the Circle of Nations holds some of the Wampum belts
http://www.angelfire.com/ns/circleofallnations/page2.html [Click on the Enter icon]
The way things used to work in America was: a small gift [i.e. international exposure on a National Park Service web site] would almost always compel the recipient to respond with a larger gift [i.e. photos and written explanations of the Wampum belts and the treaties or other events they commemorate.]
Good Luck
Grandfather Commanda also holds a primstave of Norse origin...
Hello Run.
On the contrary you might be on the right path as this is part of our Wabanaki history. As europeen landed to the eastern door of norht america ( turtle island ) They noticed some aboriginal people of the Wabanaki Nations had already some blond hair, blue eyes and light skin with strong facial traits known to belong to the Anishinabe . Anishinabe means original people. This is why some of us were called the white indians of America by many of our peoples . The term used was Bemdinyik ( meaning vikings among you ). Would this means the Wabanaki People were Métis from their pre Columbian inception with their contact with Vikings ? Inerestingly the brother of Tecumse who was considered a Prophet used a prayer stick similar to the one use by the Vikings or influence by them .
Many Wabankai family like the Thomer family , The Thomas the Dennis and the St Aubin family were among the families labelled that way.
Since the first white Europeen man married the first Wabanaki woman to give birth to Métis is well documented. It is easy to trace a Métis family history to some Norman Breton sailors from St Malo or to English prisonners of the Wabanaki familly . These Métis are called Malouidit in Wabannaki territory. But many of these Wabanaki and Huron who later intermaried with the French or English colonists already had a considerable amount of white caucesian blood in them wich dated back to pre columbian times .
It is also a very sensitive subject of discussion on our Wabanaki Territory as some Wabanaki peoples are so insecure with their own identity.
Recognition of that fact do not complied with their contemporary reality and recognition by the governement. On the contrary it might just provide a raison or a justification for governements to exclude them from the Wabanaki Nations.
The question to find the truth is when this first métissage took place and what we mean by original people? Wabanaki people are inclusive not exclusive purist. This is how they survived the métissage .
Claude Aubin
Claude,
You are leading the flock down the correct valley.
Thank you, greatly, for sharing.
@m: Thanks for the info and the link to a very interesting site. Perhaps someone out there will want to follow up on this "suggestion," which seems intriguing. Let me take this opportunity to say that I never dreamed we'd have a commentary thread of such breadth and depth when I wrote the article about the Leni Lenape exhibit now on display in the Ellis Island Museum.
Most unfortunatly the Circle of all Nations is composed and organised mainly by non native people and not a good start to focus on the Wampum belts and the origin of the Leni Lenape . The Circle of all Nations is a borowed concept from the First Nations Confederacies using Aboriginal cultural teachings . Most unfortunatly the Circle does have a religious hidden agenda in mind to deal with multi culturalism in Canada and in the Ottawa area.
Unfortunalty the organiser of this Circle have now totally isolated William Commanda from the Conferacies and from the people of his own nation who are in great need of the belts to perform their traditional ceremonies .
Most unfortunate the wampum belts are mainly located in Canadian and American museum basement collecting dust. We had succeded for the last 20 years to retreive somes pictures or to be in contanct with some. The elders has told us to make new ones and continue to empowered ourselves with the knowledge of their contents to continue the teaching and to use them in our ceremonies. Most important is is not the material these bets are made with but the holographic design that are part of the knowledge they are holding. Most antropologists had given the wampum belts a political interpretations when in fact they are the bases of intricate universal spiritual science still known by few of our people.
We statrted a project 20 years ago called he WAMPUMPAEG Project to help locate the Wampum belts in North America and around the world and we are always looking for people helping us locate them.
I have in my possession the Treaty box of the Great peace of Montreal that took place in 1701 at the same time Detroit was created. We do have many treaty medals such as one of the royal proclamation of 1763. these medals commémorate contemporary treaties. I do have a pictures of My Great Grand father posed in is regalia and with is wampum belts They never were in museum as they stay with the families. I do have pictures of this treaty box but do not know how to put it on this email .
I do have also picture of the Wawate holding the belts now under the responsibility of William Commanda. If you are interestesed to see all these pictures send me your email and It will be a pleasure for me to send them to you or to help me post them on this site to provide Bob with a larger gift. my email is : [email protected]
Our true history is written on the Wampum belts collecting dust in non Aboriginal Museum. The question is how can we retreive them to retreive the information ? They are the microcrochips full or scientific information using a binary system of energy the same way the contemporary computer works. I have been at it for the last 20 years to attemps making an inventory of them and of course using them constantly. We need Scientist to work with us on the science of the wampum belts. We need antroplogists working in museums to help us locate them.
Claude Aubin
Thank you for providing additional interesting perspective on the true meaning of Leni Lenape, Cathy. I'm sure we'll hear from others in due course. Meanwhile, it's exciting to think that this remarkable exhibit may find a permanent home. Do you think there's any chance that it might go on display in the National Museum of the American Indian on the National Mall? With 350,000 square feet of floor space housing the world’s greatest collection of Native American artifacts, you'd think this prestigious museum could find room for it somewhere.
Hello Bob & Myron. Thank you for your welcome. It can also be traslated as "True People." My sources for the meaning of"Lenape" are My People...My Language...My Culture...My Way Of Life. No smugness, nor disrespect intended. It is what it is. There can be no absolutes when it comes to translating many indigenous words to another language. We simply did not have these same words or way of thinking. I can give no other explanation, nor do we feel one is needed.
Bob... a permanant home for this exhibit will come. I am sorry, but I am not at liberty to say anything more. We must all be patient and trust that Creator has a perfect plan. We have waited so long, surely we can wait a little longer to be sure things will go as they should. I, especially, will be most happy to see this collection in a permanant home, having used many of these items in my own Lenape presentations over the years. I have a feeling the collection will be expanded upon. Dr David Oestreicher is certainly a hero & friend to my family & I. Wawulamallessil! **
[** I'm not certain, but I believe that Wawulamallessil means something along the lines of "may you always live well." Ed.]
"Wawulamallesssil" has been translated as, "fare thee well, continuously...so Ed's translation of "may you always live well" is a very good one!
Myron, if I receive requests from individuals, I will be happy to send copies of the referenced documents. I'm sorry, but I will not send them to people who have not requested them.
Cathy, be sure to let us know when that collection finds a permanent home. I'd also be interested to know about the additions.
I sure will, Bob...but it will be awhile. Grants, policy, diplomacy...yadda, yadda.
Bezahn (Greetings),
The Lenni-Lenape consisted of about thirty-eight tribal groups from the west coast to the east coast. We came to North America about thirty to forty-thousand years ago from the area of the Tigris-Euphrates River in what was Persia, but is now Iraq and Iran. My DNA confirms this. The "Lenape" that is referred to in New Jersey were actually the Unamis (Turtles) who got stuck with the white man word of "Delaware", after the river on which they lived which was named for Englishman Thomas West, Lord De-la-War.
The Unamis were the "grandmothers" of all Algonkin speaking tribal groups. Their language was the original and most ancient Algonkin dialect. All religious belief and ceremonies stem from the Unamis.
There was never a tribal group named "Lenape", since that simply refers to all Algonkin speakers. Maybe white settlers mistakenly hung the name "Lenape" on the Unamis,
but they are actually the "Turtles"?
"Lenapes" are not extinct, since there are many thousands of us from coast to coast today. And many still live in New Jersey. Most of us are now mixed with whites, especially in the east.
Col. George Armstrong Custer found out "the hard way" that Lenni-Lenape people were still around, since our brothers, the Shiela (Cheyenne) helped to wipe out his command in Montana, in the late 1800s. Custer picked the fight, and the various Indian tribes ended the fight!
And the ones that you whites called "Delawares" are the Unamis (Turtles), the Unalachtigos (Turkeys), and the Munsees (Wolves). Fortunately, we Shawnees and many other of our Algonkin speaking tribal groups across America never got stuck with that stupid white man name!
I am a Shawnee Wisdomkeeper, the last wisdomkeeper of my particular Shawnee group from the Pittsburgh area. I am of the Kispokotha Shawnees, one of the five groups of Shawnees, and I am of the Wolf Clan.
There are many Shawnees still in America. We haven't gone anywhere. We simply look like the average American on the street. I am a retired mechanical engineer. I worked in research and development at Dupont. We work the same occupations as everyone else!
And we don't say "ugh" and "how" as in bad Hollywood movies! And we are not all "chiefs"!
Much has been written about we Lenni-Lenape (Original People), the Algonkin speakers, that is in error. The same can be said about most Native Amercan people!
The problem with most white authors and white anthropologists is that they never ask anything of us. We keep reading the same tired old misinformation that was not written by our Native American people.
Native Americans are not the "Vanishing Americans", since there is an estimated fifty-million of us full and mixed-bloods in the U.S.A. alone! Yes, that is difficult for whites to believe! However, that is not counting the millions of us in Canada and Mexico (yes, they are both part of North America). And most Mexicans aren't Spanish at all, they are Mashicas (Aztecs), and various other tribal groups. They speak Spanish for the same reason that I speak English! Europeans forced their languages on us!
Add those Native Americans in South America to those in North America, and we outnumber all ethnic groups in North and South America.
Something for "white" America to think about! We are still here, folks!
Ken Lonewolf
Shawnee (of the Lenni-Lenape "Original People", the Algonkin speakers)
Bezahn Claude Aubin,
The Lenni-Lenape people migrated from Asia via the Bering Strait, roughly forty-thousand years ago. Asia was simply an open continent then. No rea=l countries like China, etc.
We must have mixed with oriental people (possibly today's Mongolian people) on our way to North America, since our Unamis in New Jersey who I have met, have a distinct oriental appearance. We Lenni-Lenape people were probably not the first humans in North America. Some tribal groups like the Tsulagi (Cherokee) claim migration from South America. They are not our people.
We Lenni-Lenape also migrated into South America about thirty-thousand years ago. Who they are there at present, I really don't know. However, there were already other humans there when our people arrived.
Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean and Mu in the Pacific Ocean are tales that have yet to be confirmed as being real places.
Incidentally, the Lakotas, Dakotas and Nakotas (the people that the French called the "Sioux" people), share DNA with the Greeks.
Abenakis in Canada are our Lenni-Lenape Algonkin speaking people. Up until the mid-1900s, white doctors were sterilizing Abenaki women without their knowledge, in order to rid eastern Canada and New England of Abenakis. When an Abenaki woman went in for any surgery at all, and went under anesthesia, she left the hospital sterile. Sounds just like Nazi Germany, doesn't it? Only it happened here in North America!
Actually, the worst "holocaust" in recorded history happened in the western hemisphere at the hands of Europeans. We Native Amricans lost an estimated sixty-million people. The actual number of deaths is only known to God.
We lost at least ten times the numbers that the Jews lost in World War Two, only it happened over a much longer period of time. And both of our continents were stolen from under our feet by Europeans.
The Blackfeet are some of our westernmost people in North America. We migrated from west to east. The Unamis (Turtles) reached the eastern shores of what is now New Jersey.
Some of our Shawnee groups went south when reaching the Ohio River area (the actual name of the river is Spaylaywasipu). Our name "Shawnee or Shawanoe" means "The Southerners". Savannah, Georgia is named for us. Those Shawnees who went south were back in Pennsylvania in the 1730s. They joined up with our Shawnees who never went south.
Shawnee descendents are still scattered across the east in these areas from Pennsylvania and Ohio, to as far south as Georgia and Alabama.
Our people arrived in Pennsylvania just in time for British Col. George Washington and his hated Virginians to personally start the seven years long French and Indian War in 1754, (1754-1763), a war that would lead to sixty years of bloody warfare for our Lenni-Lenape tribal groups in the east; all the way into 1814.
British Col. Washington never won a battle against my Shawnee people in this war. In fact he never won a battle at all in this war. He resigned his British commission in disgust, and went home to Williamsburg, Va. My Shawnee people allowed him to live through the absolute carnage at the 1755 Braddock Battle at present day Pittsburgh. We and the French almost wiped out an entire British and British-American Army to a man! They lost almost one thousand killed, we and the French lost a total of twenty-three to twenty-nine killed!
When we Lenni-Lenape people first arrived in North America about forty-thousand years ago, we moved eastward, many tribal groups of our Lenni-Lenape remaining along the way in the west and mid-west. They are still scattered across North America. We were probably the largest linquistic group of people in North America, prior to the white European invasion of North America. We Shawnees have been in the area of western Pennsylvania-eastern Ohio, for roughly thirty-thousand years. Just a wee bit longer than the whites in present-day Pittsburgh! LOL!
Th Innuits and Eskimo people do not claim to be Native Americans. They are probably not Lenni-Lenape people. If they are, that will depend on DNA analysis to prove that possibility one way or another.
Ken Lonewolf / Shawnee-White Madoc Native American
[email protected]