In a park with many uses -- mule rides, backpacking, river running -- budgeting to meet needs at Grand Canyon National Park is not always easy or simple. Top photo by Cecil Stoughton, National Park Service Historic Photograph Collection; middle photo NPS; bottom photo, Mark Lellouch, NPS.
Editor's note: This rewords the 15th paragraph to reflect that park officials did not say most comments received on the environmental assessment spoke in favor of above-the-rim rides over Inner Gorge rides.
The recent debate over mule rides in Grand Canyon National Park has left park officials, who say they have to live within their budgets and the public's desires, strongly criticized by mule backers, who say trail impacts might be less of an issue if park managers were smarter with how they spend their money.
Unfortunately for outsiders, fully understanding National Park Service budgeting is not always an easy task. There are funds dedicated to specific aspects of a park's operations, overlapping assignments that can make it difficult to tease out how much is spent on a specific area, and, among other things, funds that must be spent within a specific time-frame.
These challenges can be found in just about every one of the 394 units of the National Park System, which makes the following a helpful primer for those trying to understand how spending decisions sometimes are made in their favorite parks.
When Grand Canyon officials in March 2010 embarked on an environmental assessment to help chart the future of livestock use in the park, they pointed out that "an annual budget of approximately $3 million is needed to adequately maintain the park’s corridor trails; however, the park only receives between $1.5 and $2 million annually through entrance fees, concessions franchise fees and other sources for trail maintenance and repair."
"Additionally," they continued, "deferred maintenance costs on inner canyon corridor trails currently exceeds $24 million (GRCA PAMP 2006) – unless management actions are taken in the near future, trails will continue to fall into disrepair and deferred maintenance costs will continue to increase."
The uproar over the park's eventual decision to restrict public mule rides down to Phantom Range in the park's Inner Gorge to 10 mules per day along the Bright Angel Trail, and 10 a day from Phantom Ranch to the South Rim via the South Kaibab Trail, got me wondering about the trail maintenance funding woes, and how easily it might be to move money from another area to help meet those needs.
Since river trips down the Colorado River are a main attraction of the Grand Canyon and require more than a little attention from the park to manage, I figured that'd be a good place to look into the funding quagmire. What I found out is that nothing is entirely cut-and-dried when it comes to park funding.
For starters, Grand Canyon National Park currently spends about $1.4 million a year on river operations -- the permitting office, river patrols, concessions program, rangers staffing the put-in and takeout, environmental audits, and fee collections from river trips, just to name the most obvious tasks.
To cover that $1.4 million, the park receives a little more than $200,000 for river operations in its base funding from Congress, according to park spokeswoman Maureen Oltrogge. Another $600,000 or so comes from private user fees, she added, and the balance -- some $500,000 -- comes from concession fees.
“That pays for us to administer that operation," she said, "and that, too, pays for a ranger at Lee’s Ferry (the put-in), it pays for a ranger at Meadview (the takeout), it pays for river patrol operations."
And often those river patrols are multi-purpose, Ms. Oltrogge continued, explaining that while there might be a river ranger on the boat, there often might be someone working on Inner Gorge trail maintenance, vegetation studies, or archaeological or fisheries research. As a result, here can be a mingling of park funds traveling in that boat.
"It’s not as clean as you can take it from here without affecting something else. As nice as that would be, you just can’t do that," said Ms. Oltrogge.
Indeed, added Barclay Trimble, the Grand Canyon's deputy superintendent for business services, the money generated by river trips has to be spent on river management.
“All the stuff that comes from cost recovery from the privates (trips), that has to be spent on the resources that are being used to generate those fees. So that really can’t be reallocated at all," he said.
As to the furor over just 10 mule rides a day, park officials pointed out that current use patterns overwhelmingly show there are more hikers in the canyon than mule trips. Nearly 200 comments were received on the draft EA, they said in their synopsis, and "a wide variety of comments were received and a majority supported retention of at least some level of stock use in the park." By making more above-the-rim mule rides available, the park was responding to public demand, the officials said.
"I would say we're providing an opportunity for a bigger population, a bigger visitation base, to have that experience" of a mule ride atop the South or North rims, rather than in canyon's Inner Gorge, Mr. Trimble said during an earlier conversation. "We have had several comments over many, many, many years ... about a need for some above the rim. Not everybody wants to spend a full day going down into the canyon, baking in the sun, and coming back out.”
“The opportunity is still there, we are still providing mules down into Phantom Ranch and the North Rim is providing a ride down into the canyon," he added.
In an editorial endorsing the park's preferred livestock plan, the Arizona Daily Sun pointed to the disparity between the numbers of hikers and mule riders in the canyon.
In truth, it hasn't been the mule rides that have increased dramatically but the number of hikers -- hundreds of thousands now use the Bright Angel and South Kaibab trails each year. The two groups have combined to wear out the trails much faster than they can be repaired, resulting in a $20 million backlog of repairs.
But because there are no other viable trail corridors into Phantom Ranch, something had to give, and it was clear that the visitor experiences of 300,000 annual hikers were going to outweigh those of 10,000 mule riders. Deeply rutted trails filled with mule dung and urine, combined with rules of the road that give mule trains priority -- even when they step on a hiker's foot -- made it a foregone conclusion that some of the mules would have to go.
The move to fewer mules in the Grand Canyon is a changing of the recreational guard. While mules long have been associated with the canyon -- Brighty, anyone? -- the demand for mule rides into the canyon at a minimum seems to be slackening, while the influx of hikers determined to hoof it with their gear on their back is climbing.
Under today's budgeting scenario, something had to give, and park officials went into their deliberations with one certainty, as Ms. Oltrogge pointed out during our conversation.
“No matter what decision you make, you’re going to have people happy with it and people who are not," she said.
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Comments
No gasket problem here, Cheese. Sounds like you might be a local so would offer up something. Just a visit together over a micro or several. I'm not usually violent unless rudeness to my charges or the Canyon is involved :).
With just 0.06 % percent of the Inner Canyon Trails available to mules and their forever transformed riders the issue here needs to be put to rest and NOT with the present EA. It's about the public's need for something REAL that adds perspective to their own importance that I see. Would love to visit with someone as impassioned as yourself. Not much stealth here on this site. My name is Rich Granberg and can be messaged on Facebook. I'll buy the first round:).
Respectively
This is the Peoples Park,http://www.gordonspanel.com/
Quote.Remember that the NPS is required to preserve and protect these places, in perpetuity, for the enjoyment of future generations, not just your generation or demographic.
It seems that the pro-livestock crowd commenting here just wants carte - blanche access to the trails and no responsibility to the impacts of their activity. These commentors also seem to attack or attempt to discredit the comments from hiker groups or anyone that dosent share their opinions. Seem like a bully tactic to me.
Sorry, im my world there are limits to most everything. What suprises me is that the government had not restricted this activity sooner. How many people would go river rafting and what impacts would that have if left unchecked, how many helicpters would fly over the rim if not restricted.......how many mules daily, or should mules be the exception?
The recent EA for livestock use seems to add more mule rides in the park annually (from 8,000 to 10,000-ish), but mostly in areas that are easier/cheaper for the NPS to repair. It appears the areas that have been problematic or really expensive to repair historically, have fewer mules visiting them daily, or none at all. This seems like a good buisness practice to me.
Another irony of all these comments on restriction is that if the concerned parties wanted to bring in their own livestock into the canyon for a ride, they can go as often as they like, almost anywhere they like. the only entity being restricted is the concessionaire.
There are a variety of comments made about removing mules from the canyon.
In the EA I read - there is no mention of removing mules. the only place this comes up is in the emotional comments made by a few ex-wranglers here, or on their facebook page......repeatedly......geezus get over it. Xanterra has been provided with a operating plan and procedures that fit governement maintenance budgets. It dosent effect private use at all - you got a mule, get a permit go ride it in the Grand Canyon - celebrate being American.....whatever. Just stop with the sour grapes on everything Grand Canyon, you make it sound like a bad place, when in fact it is one of the most iconic places in this country and worty of protection and stewardship by the NPS from mule activity or any other activity that effects it negatively.
Keeper - your math is way off. That should read 6%.
Yes, ypw, my figure was indeed incorrect. You think it changes the dynamics of the discussion? I guess it does a bit but getting to what I see as the loss here is not concessionaire profits nor the cost to NPS but the LOSS TO THE PUBLIC because of the priority of sending trail dollars away from established public use to PUNISH a concessionaire (that does not care)! I see myself as someone that is sticking up for the PUBLIC'S experience here! I'd like you or anyone to try and argue I have selfish interests other than it fills me up to see what the experience means to the individuals that I lead. Go ahead and try, it'll be a wasted effort. You are welcome to join me and Yahoo for a brewsky.
Blessings
Here are some facts. During the years I was in charge of inner canyon mule operations for Xanterra, my 4 person trail maintenance crew did almost all the work keeping the south rim corridor trails open. NPS crews were rarely seen, and when they were, they spent precious time engaged in things like yoga while my crew had been working trail for hours. My budget for this trail crew was about 100,000 dollars.
With the NPS budget of 1.5 to 2 million, I could have kept those trails like interstate 40.
The mules were not kicked out because the NPS cant afford trail maintenance. They could afford it just perfectly fine on lower budgets in the 90's when I was there. Starting in the late 90's, they wasted the money they recieved and let the trails fall apart, some say on purpose.
I had asked more than once to be given the NPS money for trail maintenance and to take over all responsibility for this maintenance, and was told not only no, but that NPS wanted my trail crew to stand down and spend less time on trail repair.
Casey Murph
Former manager of Mule Operations, Xanterra
South Rim
How is this possible?
Napkin math here: Just say you did almost all the ditch digging. Never mind all the other items that require maintenance and repair.
This section of trail is about 15-miles in length, it has a ditch running along side it. a 4-person crew would have to dig 15x 5280 ft of ditch, or 79,200 foot of ditch. Thats approximately 19,800 lin ft of ditch for each person - plus travel time, plus sick days, plus the considerable amount of training they are required to work on historic features. So, at best they get a little more than half that total in ditch digging time, say 1300 working hours out of a 2080 work hour year.
Insert math: 19,800 lin ft / 1300 person hours - your digging 15. ft of ditch per hour. Digging a ditch in the Grand Canyon is some pretty rocky buisiness. How did you manage all the other stuff.
Also - if I remember correctly - even 20 years ago, in the 90's ...things where quite a bit cheaper....even gas is 3.50 a gallon now, welcome to 2011. The Park Service has not received any significant budget increases for years.
Just a question - what type of training did you provide your crew with annually to be qualified to work on something as significant as the trail system in Grand Canyon?
What type of compliance did you use to perform the work you are claiming here? Who provided your approvals?
Where and how did you access materials to perform repairs to these trails?
What types of tools and equipment did you use? Pick and shovel? I dont see how you could afford tool upkeep and repair and crew salary with $100,000.
Either I am misunderstand your statement or your claims are just intended to be inflamitory and are not facts at all as you open your post with. Or maybe you could point me to the factual part/s of your post.
I know several people that work on the NPS Trail Crew, these are some of the hardest working people I have ever known and they are passionate about their work. Billy Allen gets too much bad press for a guy who works like everyday and has to deal with short budgets, the government and the upper tiers of park management all the time he preaches to the trail crew about a greater cause. When something bad happens he is typically the first person to respond either personally or with his trail crew. I remember actually going in with him to remove mules from the trails that had fallen off - these were xanterra mules too. I wouldnt call you in for volunteer work if you complained on the internet and at public meetings about me or the things I feel strongly about either.
The volunteer offer was two years ago before this EA came out and to set things straight, I KNOW the politics involved here and they don't do any of the foot soldiers justice whether they are trail crew, wranglers, packers or hikers. There's a quality missing sometimes in leadership. The best ones seem to have a bigger view and bring things together. I guess character and a system that appreciates it is the deciding factor. The machinations of government employment does handicap many (if not all) from really having the freedom to do what is supremely right thing for everyone. God can only contribute to that result. Someone in private sector just has a clearer path to get a job (good job) done without a lot of the levels of management all covering their political... The nerves that are piqued by the inference by some that slam trail crews (NOT ME) is unfortunate but hope it's very clear here that they are the grounded :) heros. It's not the footsoldiers that authorized a heavy lift helicopter to drop rocks (that a man can carry) at the Red and Whites at $150 per rock. Made me think of how the support cables for the Black Bridge got delivered down the South kaibab. A group of Havasupai Indians with the cables slung over their shoulders with a mule on both ends. Sounds simple doesn't it. Use of volunteers, hikers, mule wranglers, packers or anyone that wanted to contribute could have provided the help but weren't asked. Sure would add to a common goal and reward of Canyon equity. Well, I guess I'm getting away from my point here that I like and value trail guys/gals that have the sweat equity and character to do the job. Getting away from the divisiveness that has sprouted as a result of this EA would be the best direction, I believe. Thanks Trail Crew!
What really tipped my hat in this hole thing was the fact that Martin had the Mules inspected for abuse from a very non qualified person with no appropriate back ground on the most cared for animals in the world and bringing down one of the best hands that Ive ever had the pleasure to work with ( Casey Murph ) a man I truly respect, from what Ive read I believe Martin to be about the most dirty person I can think of in that type position, these NPS people just dont get it, this is like a mtn biker telling all the cars on I-15 he has the right away because they have exhaust, DUMB, the cars where there first, its very clear now that using tax payer money to build bike paths that go no where are more important than providing world travelers the chance to take a historic mule ride, or protect the most remarkable remote rock art sites on the planet, and to bully and threaten when there agendas are in peril, this is CORRUPTION at its finest and there's some tree huggers on here wonder why Im pissed,just a bunch of self proclaimed owners of the people park that aint got a clue how to run it or cater to its visitors, GOD BLESS TEDDY ROOSEVELT.
Like, really? Like, wow, shaggy! Thanks for illustrating to my point trailsman!
Quote from a YAHOO,It doesnt effect private use at all - you got a mule, get a permit go ride it in the Grand Canyon - celebrate being American.... All right now, every one with a private mule or horse it would just tickle me pink for you all to apply for a back country permit to ride the Tuck Up Trail, you get to the trail head through Han Cock Noles, just go South 32 miles on the main Tuweep RD and turn left at June Tank, If ya get denied please come back on this post and let us know all about it, :)
Casey, I cant stand by and watch this insanity with out puttin in my 2 cents, Be good to talk with ya again one of these day's, Hope your doing well pard,... if ya ever wish to contact me for any reason Laurie Briegel I believe has my email, even though I will never guide again mainly because of the pay :) I wish that little Murph and my daughters to ride to phantom on MULES together one day, Best Gordo
What I always envisioned and worked toward while working at the Canyon was engaging every person on the trail in an effort to make the experience the best it could be. Just the effort to edify individuals paid great rewards. The woman that had come to the Canyon after a bad breakup and was thinking of doing the worst (turned out well). The Asian family hiking in the heat in the Red and Whites that looked like lobsters but were transformed to the living by a half gallon of water pored over their heads and bodies and supplied with electrolytes. The woman in the 22nd mile of her RXR hanging by one arm from a Gamble Oak limb with her body hanging over the edge looking up at me and pleading to "not let her die because she had four children at home (turned out well)." The letters she wrote saying how her life was so precious, her family, and how every blade of grass or the most insignificant thing had so much meaning. Similar stories are told by most all that work and frequent the Canyon and fill a special place in us that sustains us. All the testing that goes on with everyone that is willing to enter is the prelude to something very gratifying and meaningful. I'm just bringing up a reminder of something that gets lost in the arguments and testing of the moment but drives me to continue doing the challenging work with great personal rewards. Wranglers, Packers and Back Country Rangers are blessed !
Gordon Smith
I have been to many sites that have native american drawings and without a doubt Shamans Gallery is unique and most remarkable. Unfortunately most sites with native american drawings are also littered with graffitti and the associated impacts of uneducated visitors that damage what is sacred through their stupidity or ignorance.
Why would you point out how to access Shamans Gallery a sacred archeology site closed to public visitation - his comment are only vaguely related to the subject of this post. Is it so your buddies can write their name on the wall next to greatness, maybe touch touch it? Some places should be left alone, and you advertising it and how to get there does not make you important, or cool as you wish to be.
You should be ashamed of yourself, better yet the NPS should turn you over to the Walapai Nation that claims this site. I bet they would be less forgiving for your crime to their heritage.
That web site is all about PROTECTION WHICH NPS HAS NOT DONE, and should not be kept secret from publick view, because the public OWNS
GRAND CANYON, Keeping it secret with no one there to protect it invites problems, wouldnt it be much better to have a person at the trail head to moniter people going in ? YOU just dont get it, its the peoples park and every tax paying American has there right to see it, not just a select few, I call that a quite sell fish point of view, do you think some people have the right and others dont? I repeat its the Peoples Park and all have that right, you should be ashamed of your self for having that type mentality, and its really to bad that people on here have to hide there name, in my view its people like you that is bringing this country to her knees,, All deserve to see this place just like all deserve to be able to take a mule right, not just a select few per day,. But its all so a back stab issue with me, when I discovered that site and sent pictures to the then acting super man ( Dick Marks) he said in a letter that this was stuff from Australia after being informed by his Arcaolagists, so they called me a liar,, so I said I will show you, I took in Jan Balsom and her buddy, THERE mouths hit the floor, I said I want the noteriety they said fine, Six months later I took in Polly Shasma and NPS, about a year later they claimed I did not find it,,, OH,,, and for the next 20 years they have kept the most important rock art site in the world a secret from public view, THATS WRONG, and have not protected it properly,...Love Gordy
This comment was edited to remove gratuitous insults. Let's take the high road folks. -- Ed.
To Offended, The site is NOT closed to visitation, you can even sign your name in a ammo box, put there by NPS, there are no closed signs, and I have not broken any laws, and if you go online you will see about five other sites even giving GPS location info, I dont do that, the way to protect the site is by monertering the site which is not done but I would like to see that, my web site is about the protection of the site period, if some one go's down there with bad intent then its that person doing the crime, not me, if you think differently you can call one of my lawyers that have assured me Im in the right, so before ya come on here with your threat tactic, know what your talking about, it all go's to prove a point, Regards G
And for your info, I have been there with a Judge and his daughter that were with me taking pictures the last time I was there about two years ago, Regards Gordon
My Buddies ? Sorry I dont have BUDDIES that would do such a thing, Accusations, Threats, dont go well with me, I dont have to guess who you voted for, for President, ya bought into that one to ha, Kind Regards G
Now if you wish the name and phone number of my Lawyers and the Name of the Judge that hiked in with me the last time I was there taking pics, I can email that info to you if you wish, THE NPS, are Servants to the Public not there Boss, thats why in my view its not correct for them to regulate the amount of people who can ride a mule nor say if your not a PHD you cant go to this site, Regards G
Shaggy, my name is Casey Murph. My reputation speaks for itself. That, my anomymous friend, is all the proof you need as to whether my facts are straight or not.
My crew was trained under the NPS guidelines and work was approved by NPS trail maintenance supervisor Bill Allen. I personally met with Allen monthly to coordinate. (This coordination was for me to tell him what my crew was doing and for him to make excuses why his crew wasnt there)
3.50 a gallon gas? Hmmm thats the going rate in California, not Arizona. Could it be from there that you write? If so, come a little closer, and see for yourself whats going on.
Casey Murph
Shaggy, I'm sure you have seen the picture of that stretch of trail posted on this morning talk show that rain water has scoured the trail out, was it done this way just to try and blame mules when it had no mule traffic on it at all ? or was it done this way so that NPS trail crews could see little water fall's with out going to the river ? :) Shaggy if ya dont put in a water bar every so often to divert the run off - off the edge its goona eat the trail alive, but its not there fault because they were not trained properly, so I understand,,, or maybe they knew it was job security after every rain storm ? As for back country stock use I was happy to see this next info so if any one wants to ride there own private stock in remotes trails of the Canyon we can all do that as long as we are not camping and with out a permit :)
A backcountry permit is required for:
* overnight hiking
* overnight horseback riding
* overnight cross-country ski trips
* off-river overnight hikes by river trip members
* overnight camping at rim sites other than developed campgrounds
* overnight camping on the North Rim during the winter season
A backcountry permit is not required for:
* day hiking
* day horseback riding
* overnight camping at Mather Campground, Desert View Campground, North Rim Campground (summer season only), and Tuweep Campground
* overnight stays at the dormitories or cabins at Phantom Ranch (advanced reservations with Xanterra Parks & Resorts required)
Gordon, I'm well aware of the frustration and outrage with this issue. The twisted statistics, some lies, yes lies, the imaging and use of environmental buzz words when those most responsible stand quiet during the orchestrated loss to the great majority of those that OWN the Canyon, is indeed frustrating. Our tone does tend to be that way considering the assault that one individual has waged against the iconic Ride. I believe that one individual deserves our wrath and investigation and not the foot soldiers that we see doing the heavy lifting while working under that one individual's direction. We all know what that's like.
The animosity toward that individual began from very early in his tenure when it was rumored that he was here to get rid of then mules. It was compounded by a trail incident involving a hiking party led by that individual including his wife. Without him identifying himself he confronted the wrangler, Filip Zalesky while he was tending to a guest. Filip acting in accordance with NPS Trail Rules verbally engaged "that individual" but the all powerful individual got in a shouting match with individual's wife also participating. This is Superintendent individual, we're speaking of here. The impression by the witnesses was that individual seem to be quite full of himself and position and went to the Filip's boss to support him all to no avail. Individual called management and Filip was suspended then, deeply disappointed that he wasn't supported he resigned and left the Rim. A FOIA request was made to NPS concerning the incident resulting in a response that there was NO RECORD of an incident taking place. There are many witnesses if someone would care to investigate.
So I for one believe the driving force with the EA is the "individual" and not those trying to do the best job they can in very difficult circumstances.
Safety on the Mule rides has all way's been top priority with management from the mule barn as well as every wrangler- Guide there are Rules for hiking the canyon in areas of mule rides and those rules are clearly posted at trail heads and CLEARLY every one must abide by these Canyon law's for the safety of the mule and rider, as a mule guide the safety of each rider is above everything and is not taken lightly, your al way's on the look out for something to go wrong before it happens, and most riders dont even notice that complete attention from there guide, what seems to be an easy job is not wile catering to every need of the rider and keeping them safe at the same time, as a guide you have to watch out for so many things such as unstable rock and ice that may shift wile mules pass by, listening for huge ice sheets from above that break off , wild animals moving in brushy areas next to trail, Hiker trash blowing in the wind, Riders that want to take off extra clothing or garments etc falling off, or the rider getting sick, all demanding a stop and a wranglers attention, but the most complicated issue for a riders safety is the hikers coming at ya from above and below and Ive seen many that role rocks just for there kicks, there are places on these trails for mule rides ya just dont stop mules if it can be avoided because of how wide some areas or narrow they are and the kind of drop off below, when mule trains are coming out of the Canyon there are certain areas that every guide rests his mules with heads out, these spots in the most part are wider areas in the trails so that hikers can pass wile mules take a breather, many hikers are so over loaded and wore out that in many cases there footing wile passing mules is not very stable, the last thing ya want is a hiker with all kind a stuff hanging from a pack falling into a mule and rider, so these areas are a type of safety corrader to every wrangler wile hikers pass and the location of those spots are handed down from guide to guide, from what Ive read on the face book mule appreciations pages the fact that SUPERMAN Martin got into an argument with a wrangler tell's me very clearly that Martin did NOT follow the Wranglers instruction's thinking he was above the law, with all the riders as witness Im sure there where comment sheets wrote out from riders that watched this ordeal unfold, at that point and time MARTIN should have been FIRED with out retirement pay,,, maybe after an investigation into that matter involving the SAFETY of the Mule Riders maybe a congressman or Senator can get that retirement money yanked, but I wonder if theres more money there than meets the eye ? Kind Regards Former Wrangler Gordon Smith
Safety on the Mule rides has all way's been top priority with management from the mule barn as well as every wrangler- Guide there are Rules for hiking the canyon in areas of mule rides and those rules are clearly posted at trail heads and CLEARLY every one must abide by these Canyon law's for the safety of the mule and rider, as a mule guide the safety of each rider is above everything and is not taken lightly, your al way's on the look out for something to go wrong before it happens, and most riders dont even notice that complete attention from there guide, what seems to be an easy job is not wile catering to every need of the rider and keeping them safe at the same time, as a guide you have to watch out for so many things such as unstable rock and ice that may shift wile mules pass by, listening for huge ice sheets from above that break off , wild animals moving in brushy areas next to trail, Hiker trash blowing in the wind, Riders that want to take off extra clothing or garments etc falling off, or the rider getting sick, all demanding a stop and a wranglers attention, but the most complicated issue for a riders safety is the hikers coming at ya from above and below and Ive seen many that role rocks just for there kicks, there are places on these trails for mule rides ya just dont stop mules if it can be avoided because of how wide some areas or narrow they are and the kind of drop off below, when mule trains are coming out of the Canyon there are certain areas that every guide rests his mules with heads out, these spots in the most part are wider areas in the trails so that hikers can pass wile mules take a breather, many hikers are so over loaded and wore out that in many cases there footing wile passing mules is not very stable, the last thing ya want is a hiker with all kind a stuff hanging from a pack falling into a mule and rider, so these areas are a type of safety corrader to every wrangler wile hikers pass and the location of those spots are handed down from guide to guide, from what Ive read on the face book mule appreciations pages the fact that SUPERMAN Martin got into an argument with a wrangler tell's me very clearly that Martin did NOT follow the Wranglers instruction's thinking he was above the law, with all the riders as witness Im sure there where comment sheets wrote out from riders that watched this ordeal unfold, at that point and time MARTIN should have been FIRED with out retirement pay,,, maybe after an investigation into that matter involving the SAFETY of the Mule Riders maybe a congressman or Senator can get that retirement money yanked, but I wonder if theres more money there than meets the eye ? Kind Regards Former Wrangler Gordon Smith
So - you managed to repair all the trails in the Grand Canyon with a 4-person crew using your reputation....and thats all it took? Thats one heck of a bag of qualifications, I can understand why it would be so cheap.
In the real world - work crews actually cost money, training work crews and supporting their activity takes a diverse skill set - and performing work in public places takes cooperation and time, which also amounts to money.
I have seen comments in this thread that state the NPS crews are responsible for the entire park, looking at the Grand Canyon website the park has over 700 miles of trail, and you seem to be focused on the 15-or so miles that the mules used while you worked there.
Could it be that these work crews where working elsewhere, while your crew of 4 was working on the 15 miles your mules where damaging? seem logical to me. Or, do you figure that Mr. Allen should have been reporting to you, or doing the work instead of you. There seem to be a whole in argument you would like to make about this individual that is irrelevant.
Some items I am hoping to discuss with you would be total Cost of Ownership, and Life-Cycle Cost. Just some more basic numbers. If you have a item that requires maintenance you should expect to put 5% (more in unique environments such as the Grand canyon - maybe 12%) of the total value of that thing in to its annual maintenance or recurring maintenance (RM) (that's every year), in this case you have an 80-year old thing (the trail system) which actually has a 25-million-ish Deferred Maintenance (DM) as stated in this and other threads. DM is work that need to be performed before you would even begin the (RM)otherwide you are wasting your time and money (like putting oil into an old truck that leaks oil - you should probably fix the oil leak first).
This tells me that the Goverment would have to put 25-m into Rehabilitation (fixing the oil leak) just to get it to the point that you would be able to keep up with that 5%-12% of maintenance cost annually....... so with 100k as you mentioned earlier. There is no way your work was making any progress - doing the RM with first doing the DM is nothing other than a failed attempt.
Additionally - I am not sure what the total value of the Corridor Trails in the Grand Canyon is... but I am sure it would cost more that 5-m to built or rebuild in todays dollars, even the 15-miles of trail we are discussing here has a lot of features, or individual parts that each require their own specific maintenance needs. The NPS has said it would need 3-m annually to keep up with the trail maintenance. I would assume that is 5% of the value of the trail system....just guessing.
So - Mr. Murph - using the power of deductive reasoning it seems to me that you may have supported a work crew, and you probably do great work, and you are obviously very proud of your accomplishments....but I dont think you are understand the real cost of doing buisness in todays economy.
Also, I am not sure that you are fully grasping the complexity of working on public lands in historic landscapes. Long gone are the days of pick and shovel work without constraint, documentation. The NPS is required to report their work and document their activities, (the whoel transparency/accountability thing) so I would just guess that the NPS crews may have been out doing the DM work discussed earlier while you 4-person crew did the RM........ Just maybe why you did not interact with these crews much.
This reminds me of conversations I have had with similiar work crews when they dont see, or know what the other crew is doing. They typically say this like "I have to do all the work" - Whats the "other crew" doing. My experience is that the other crew is usually working too, and usually saying the same thing.
Ahh yes - the old leave the waterbar out trick. Its diabolical, these NPS and their waterbar conspiracies.
If only these improperly trained, and overy lazy, moronic people could do something right, the Grand canyon would never show effects from erosion again...... Gordon, you have missed your calling, you should work on a trail crew.
Just a question, are we sure the NPS installed the set of check steps in the photo? I have seen comments from Casey Murph that indicate his 4-person crew was free to work independantly and their work was not properly documented. it could be that the NPS just threw a bunch of dirt on the Xanterra crews work and the next rain event washed that dirt off. the logs in the photo do seem a bit worn out from mule traffic to be new construction.
The point of that picture was to show erosion damage. There wouldn't be 4 million visitors coming to the Canyon without erosion damage on a GRAND scale, LOL. Doesn't matter who put or didn't put water bars in. The arguments that divert attention from the real truth of what's happening here is just that, a diversion.
Lets look at the truth of the Stock Use EA Public Comments submitted to NPS that were misreported as "mostly supporting " reduction in mules. In reality the number supporting historical numbers of riders IN the Canyon compared to getting the mules out is over 6-1. You include the somewhat reduction with total elimination against the pro mules, the historical number of riders still win by OVER 2-1.
People can get figures wrong but this is indicative of something MUCH more serious. A review of this EA and how it was arrived at needs to be done (and reversed).
But Shaggy, I have done allot of trail work on both rim's in the past, one winter on the South Rim me and 5 other Wranglers that decided to stay on for the winter went in and done trail work for months and many days used as many as 10 head of mules to haul dirt, water bar's, and tools and worked our a---- off, wile also running into NPS trail crews with less equipment and personel, between there hikes in and out and yoga tome etc, they were only getting in about 2 hours of work per day but getting with MY tax payer money the full wage, now shaggy lets get real about the facts here. Best G
Ok Gordon - lets get rizzel. First off a lot is 2 words - one L.
I dont know what the yoga thing is you keep referring to - maybe the crew streching out prior to activity....I dont know. I would assume that getting a person to warm-up prior to performing physically demanding activity is a good thing. Sore back and shoulders can cost a lot at the doctors office - touching your toes for 10-mins is relativly cheap. I wonder if they practice Governement Employee pose (this is where you grab both ankles and bite your lip).
But if you used 10-mules to haul dirt, that is 200-lbs of dirt per mule string - 10 mules would be 2 strings. so you moved around about 1,000 lbs of dirt per string or 1-ton per trip with 2-strings. Good Job - Im sure the NPS appreicates it - but wait this is a recurring maintenance activity as I describe earlier. You where probably doing this work to protect the structures that the NPS was building....correct?
But what this tool thing you mention, earlier it ws discussed that the 4-person crew got approvals and equipment from the NPS. Are you telling me that the NPS crew are under-equipped with the necessary tools to do their work? Maybe this is part of the problem, if the NPS had adequate budgets maybe there wouldnt be this problem. I dont know.
Either way - 2hours work seem hyper critical - was there significant travel time to the job site that caused this>? if so how did you mitigate the travel time to work in the same area as you are stating here? Personally - if I worked on a crew I dont think I would agree to hike to the jobsite for free - im certain that this time is budgeted into their cost.
I would assume that trail crews hiking to and from jobsites is pretty common - if they where hiking that many hours to and from the work, there must be other issues that casued that to occur.
In your statement you said you worked you a___ off - is it possible that the NPS crews maybe felt the same way> I would guess that if they were spending that much time hiking to and from a jobsite there may have been some exhaustion issues associated with the project. Hiking in the Grand canyon is tuff enough - add swinging a hammer and using a shovel to that effort and you have quite a few other issues to consider (such as employee safety, visitor safety) to consider - in addition to getting the work done.
I'm just saying - sounds like you maybe have done some trail work, but the scope of work you performed sounds pretty narrow/limited. But yet - here you speaking as an expert .... is that real enough for you Gordon?
Just to add a fact or two here to add some balance to the verbal bar fight (better use of time). By the way, I respect the trail crews that do the heavy lifting and are at the whim of politicos.
Find some real here and talk to the trail crew that had to hike from Phantom to above Tip Off to start the day and then hike back to Phantom that afternoon. They accomplished 600 ft of trail ALL WINTER then when the weather was ideal and they could have camped there they were pulled off to build NEW trails above the Rim. Uh...leadership decisions not the great bunch that are solid and get jerked around. The job and the character that is required by either crew does not deserve the heat that management deserves.
Come On Shaggy, Where ya at ? This is getting interesting now, Like Murph's statement, His trail crew's where trained in trail work and was approved by NPS, and as far as his reputation, that means a flawless safety record wile providing a prestine experiece for mule riders and above and beyond the call of duty in all the years of trail mantanence and for your info SHAGGY thats 20 yrs plus, so dont knock a man that worked that hard for that long and who really deserves some kind of an award for his complete devotion to everything that the canyon visitor represents, I State my peace , God bless you Casey Murph, and I want to thank you for being a man that always done the right things and had a way of seeing right from wrong and ALWAYS being honest and a straight shooter in every aspects of our work together, Kind Regards Gordo
Gordon - I dont understand what point your trying to make in your last post. Is this a "I work harder than them" statement?
Interesting that Shaggy would say that former mule operations manager Murph doesnt understand business, when in fact Murph ran the largest backcountry outfitting business in the world at a consistent profit. Perhaps it is Shaggy who should take some business tips from mr. Murph. Shaggy, if you are so business savvy, why do you remain anonymous?
The mule have been kicked out simply because some hikers want the place to themselves, and had powerful allies to help them do this, this is the crux
Yeah - Casey Murph 's word is solid - only thing more solid is his skills as a livery manager (why did you lose your job?). No proof necessary - no math please....too confusing, just his firm handshake, his steely gaze, and all these problems are solved.
In regards to someone else paying the Park Service legal bills maybe they would be more accountable if they had to pay their own legal fees. Quit living off your daddy and Mommie and live in the real world. Be responsible and be more accountable for your actions. Bad Park Service employees cost good people their jobs and damage the assets that the Park Service is to protect. Arrogance!!!!!!!!!
Here is just more proof of the park service threats, Ya cant do this in France :) and to these comments:Re: gordon's panel
Oh yeah. One last comment on the subject. Very broad, but noteworthy.
2 weekends ago I went to the Grand Canyon River Guides Training at
Hatch Expeditions at Vermillion Cliffs. One of the presentations was
a "Panel of Native Americans" expressing their views and thoughts.
Present were Hopi, Navajo, Paiute, Zuni and Hualapai tribe
representation. I think that they have a bigger role (or should have)
in what happens or doesn't happen. For the most part they all welcome
visitation to "their ancestors" sacred sites, but ask for respect in
their customs and behaviors when visiting them.
Bo
--- In [email protected], "Sam" wrote:
>
> Bo-didn't you and that wild/crazy hiking gal publish a piece on
this?
>
> Did you get a nasty a nasty letter from the NPS too?
>
> I don't know the rest of the story but it appears this guy
discovered
> the site but something isn't what it seems? Do you know Gordon?
>
> http://www.gordonspanel.com/news20060310.html
>
> http://www.gordonspanel.com/location.html
>Re: gordon's panel
We got a letter from some organization who's goal is to keep the public away from rock art - and thus protect it --- even if it is in a National Park. Bo and I feel that it is our lands - public lands and it should not just belong to some organization -- and that education on how to protect the rock art is much better than hiding it.
We did not get any letter from the park but Bo did talk to someone from there.
Gordon has contacted us. I am not sure what the story is except I do believe that Gordon did find the rock art and showed it to the park.
--- In [email protected], "Sam" wrote:
>
> Bo-didn't you and that wild/crazy hiking gal publish a piece on this?
>
> Did you get a nasty a nasty letter from the NPS too?
>
> I don't know the rest of the story but it appears this guy discovered
> the site but something isn't what it seems? Do you know Gordon?
>
> http://www.gordonspanel.com/news20060310.html
>
> http://www.gordonspanel.com/location.html
>
Hey there Spirit Yote, What ya howling about,, You failed to make a point, Ive guided rides in Yellowstone, Glacier, Grand Canyon both Rims, Zion, Bryce, Rocky Mtn National Park, and the fact is there are not the amount of hikers on the same trails as live stock in yellow stone over by Mammoth hot springs and there for the crap isnt noticed as much by hikers, But Mule rides in all these OTHER parks are not even close as Iconic as the Grand Canyon Mules and this is what these comments are about, were talking about real history here, none of the other rides in other Parks are not even close to being so important as the Grand Canyon mules, but thats not to say there aint some other very great rides out there, YOTE, they where there first, you can step around the green, so quit your snobbin and boobin,and belly ackin and cowboy up, whats a matter with you son? Good Hiking, Regards Gordon Smith
I was gonna say "cowboy up," and WALK. Then I thought...well..."cowboy up" is a pretty funny expression. Now I wish I had beat you to it.
Anyway. I was just wondering why in discussions of this issue people that pay to ride livestock get to call someone who walks (which doesn't cost anything) an elitist. I'm a cheapskate for a reason. I don't have a ton of money.
Re" YPW,
A lot to understand but it's not about money and several other mis-characterizations in those 55 anti's (just 18 real anti's) out of 179 total comments. So many of the people I have taken over the years didn't understand either but had the huevos to push their comfort zone and step out of the box they had created over the years and were transformed. Something about putting confidence in something other than themselves and their own feet. Difficult to explain to someone that is stuck in their box. All I can do is plant a seed if they are fortunate enough to image the possibility and try.
The weight thing, YPW, I've had people lose over 70 lbs to go on the Plateau Point (now replaced by a ride through the pines along the sewar pond effluent flow between a rode and the railroad tracks). What so you and others haven't picked up, yet, is that the RIDE into the Canyon is one of the few GREAT things people have been able to do. Not understanding is one thing but not understanding and not allowing someone else or being considerate enough to SEE what has been such a NATIONAL treasure is something else and something the country could use less of. Somewhere in here the definition of elitist can be found.
Thanks for bringing up your question and allowing me to try to explain.
Keeper
YOTE, By the way, If you prefer to stay with the crouds it will not be a wilderness trip, But Grand Canyon my friend can be a wilderness trip, all depends on where you go, I could show you trails that have NEVER had mule crap, and in these areas you will not see any one not just for months but never, not even NPS, thats how large Grand Canyon is, so have another shot and think about it, Regards Gordo
Just a show of hands - how many of the commentors here have been terminated from Xanterra or the NPS and just want an ax to grind with anything Grand Canyon?
RE: Ghostbuster fellow,
I'm told by an "employed " NPS Ranger that I gained respect and standing by being a fired by Xanterra. I'm proud to be in the company of such accomplished & decent guys. Ron, Filip, Casey and several that were disgusted and left the Rim but would do anything to support what the ride has been to so many over the years. The Inner Canyon Rides and not the Sewer Pond Effluent Stream Ride through the pines to the Abyss (the preferred alternative). Yes, Ghost fellow, I've got my hand held HIGH.
Appreciate the opportunity for dialogue. I apologize if I seem a bit snarky (although truthful) and do look forward to positive conversations.
The reason why the walkers are the elitist (not all) but many of them want all other forms of access eliminated to prevent them from having to interact with the people who either choose to or have to ride into the NPS park system. To the elitist walkers no other access is acceptable. If there is doubts in what I say please look into every article on this site and other sites where alternative access and or recreation is put against walking or hiking. You will find the same old song and dance. Bikes should be Banned, Snowmobiles have no right to be here, You do not need an ORV for access... In the end they state the same "JUST WALK"
What the big question here is whether NPS can correct this "injustice on so many levels" and be viewed as an organization that deserves these responsibilities are someone initiates a Congressional investigation and hauls in to sub-committees Superintendent Steve Martin and IMR Director Wessels (again) with the likes of Senators John Barrasso, Doc Hastings or Rep. Rob Bishop asking the questions that just might vier into the Hubbell Trading Post affair. Does NPS want this kind of Public Affairs challenge? Does the whole environmental industry want their dark underbelly exposed?
Breakthroughs are difficult but this is a burden that needs to be lifted with validation and good public policy the reward.
Respectfully
to Randy Thompson, i have never been employed by Xanterra or NPS ... i am a mule rider. i don't own mules, or breed them, i don't make money off mules or anything to do with the mule ride. i have always loved to ride horses, never been able $$ to own my own. i set a personal goal for myself to lose weight and get in shape for the mule ride to the bottom of the canyon as a reward and a bucket list item. i live in Michigan. i saved up the $500 or so that was the cost of the actual mule trip. i used frequent flier miles for my airline trip to Arizona.
i was not even aware there were changes being considered to the ride until i WENT on my ride. i made reservations, and paid, a year in advance for the down the BA, up the SK ride advertised. when changes were made, Xanterra and NPS did not even have the decency to notify me in advance that i was not going to get the ride i had paid for, when they closed the SK to mule traffic. they made the wranglers share that somewhat disappointing info when i arrived for my ride. the staff at the mule barn were all wonderful! Steve and Anslem, and Norman, and KBar were great--i had the best vacation experience i have ever had. the staff at Phantom was also very good, friendly and professional.
i was fortunate to take the 2 night trip, so i did the 12 mile ribbon falls hike on my off day between riding down and riding up. i'm such a fat lazy mule rider....
i am curious, of all the people who use the canyon, where do the hikers come from and where do the mule riders come from? ie what percentage of canyon users are from out of the southwest states? i think there is a very strong, and yes elitist, group of "vocal locals" who feel that because they have the time/money to visit and enjoy the canyon year after year, that it is "theirs." since the vast majority of people who visit the canyon do not venture below the rim, they are not a bother to these elitists. the mule riders, though, are another story. we dare to enter the canyon itself.
i haven't noticed that any hikers have called for the banning of the mules who service THEM once they are ensconced at Phantom or in one of the very difficult to get campsites. i guess these mules don't poop or pee on the trails. until hikers have to pack in and pack out EVERYTHING, in my opinion they should stop complaining about the mules.
there are HUNDREDS of miles of trails in the canyon that hikers can use where they don't have to worry about the mules. but those trails aren't the easy ones, and those trails aren't the convenient ones. so who is lazy now, hikers?
visit my facebook group, and watch some of the several hundred links/videos, and look at some of the more than 500 pictures posted by our more than 1,100 members.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=188057931399
educate yourselves with something other than the NPS propaganda.
talk to some of the people who have been at the canyon, down in the ditch, for 15, 20, 30 years ... learn something :-)
This comment was very lightly edited. Let's try to be civil folks, or we'll bring things to a halt. -- Ed.
Keeper - I really have no animosity towards the mule rides per se. It probably would have been the highlight of my week to have come across a mule train when I was on the South Kaibab Trail. My only reservation is about the poop. I don't care for the whole blame game; blaming hikers for the bad behavior of a few isn't going to make the conflict go away. If something could be done about cleaning it up regularly (like people picking up dog waste on the street), a lot of the animosity could be reduced. Maybe see if the maker of this product could come up with a mule/horse sized version:
http://theshapoopie.com
I'm 6'0" and slowly inching over 180 lbs. I'm thinking by the time I could reserve a ride, I (along with my equipment) might not be under the 200 lbs limit.
YPW,
I wouldn't think you would have a problem with the weight limit. I've had people lose up to 10 pounds the day before the ride. One very determined Texan in his late 60's lost 6 pounds over night and we had to watch him closely for dehydration in the late June 120 degree heat. He made it fine but won't be coming in July again :). I'm sure if you want the experience you'll make it happen. I don't know what all you would want to bring but hikers very frequently duffel stuff down and back with the packers. There are scattered periods where the processed alfalfa and water do get excessive but the problem for some is well taken care of on the North Kaibab by Canyon Trail Rides. South Rim Crew seems to be doing well with not making it an issue. With what's left it might be better to think of it as good traction on the ice:). I appreciate your effort, here.
Mule So CALLED POOP is not down every mile of trail, only per say at a few pit stops along the miles of trail other wise its pretty clean, the biggest excuse here I think is the EROSION issue blamed mostly on mules not the thousands of hikers and there trash, and a missapropreation of money for trail work, make the hikers pick up a little of that tab, not just paying an entrance fee, say two dollars per person that want to hike where the mule trips are. lets see, 1000 hikers per day x 2 = happiness. Come on People now, smile on your brother, every body get together right now. Best G
Maybe one of these days I'll be on a mule ride in the Grand Canyon. However - closer to home, there are still mule rides offered at Yosemite NP. There's even a specific horse/mule trail that isn't open to hikers. For whatever reason, they set a rider limit of 225 lbs.
http://www.yosemitepark.com/Activities_MuleHorsebackRides.aspx
The only time I'd been on a mule was as a kid visiting the now defunct Frontier Village amusement park in San Jose, California.
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