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Guns in the Parks: A Bad Idea

Dec 8th - 18:39pm | Snowbird

Mr. Povich, I'll meet you half way on the issue, since you have not produced any documented facts about your position except your wind bag opinions. Let me say this, lets plant trees together in the parks, and you can plant (or leave) your water pistol at home, then we both will be doing something creative and constructive for the living environment... instead criticizing each other.

Dec 8th - 15:52pm | Rick Povich

Snowbird: "look who's in the White House! Mr. Bush and can't shoot straight Dickie Bird Cheney...the good old boy's representatives of the NRA!" That's informative and relevant to the discussion. To be expected.

Dec 8th - 13:13pm | Snowbird

Mr. Povich, in all do respect, may I submit to you, look who's in the White House! Mr. Bush and can't shoot straight Dickie Bird Cheney...the good old boy's representatives of the NRA! You say that "firearms actually save lives" If that's true, then why does the United States have the highest homicide rate (for industralized nation) in the world ...outside of Bush's Bagdad fiasco?

Dec 8th - 12:06pm | Rick Povich

Parkaholic is obviously quite knowledgeable of anti-gun propaganda regarding the efficacy of firearms for personal protection. Unfortunately he comes up way short of any truth. Kellerman's (you know him, right?)"research" has long been discredited. Folks with firearms actually _save_ lives. Macho gun haters talking trash are always amusing but grossly uninformed.

Dec 8th - 11:34am | Snowbird

To "some name of other" (another faceless soul). Look! the NRA is simply playing it's hand to help promote more hysteria and paranoia with it's fear campaign... by provoking people like you to do their name calling, and to distort the real facts what their real agenda is all about...to sell more guns!!

Dec 7th - 22:39pm | parkaholic

This blog certainly supports the existance of tourons. (tourist/morons) Amazingly even though all these people carry their firearms for their protection it is dificult to find any writings describing the effective defense against a violent crime by these heroes. It must be because the conservative press refuses to write about it....yeah right.

Dec 6th - 22:27pm | some name or other

Is this dumbass above the only one who agrees with the author? You might want to think twice about sharing an opinion with such a bigoted fool.

Nov 24th - 18:36pm | Snowbird

Yes, paranoia is alive and well in the National Parks. Mixed with a little booze and a touch of domestic violence because your wife BBQ the steak wrong, or somebody accidently takes your camping spot by mistake... you just whip out your little old permit pistol...and settle business! Yes, the way the good old boy's like to settle it...the NRA way!

Yellowstone Biologists: Politics, Not Science, Likely Will Decide Snowmobile Issue

Dec 8th - 18:20pm | Alan

Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Is Anyone Listening?

Dec 8th - 17:58pm | repanshek

Jim, This blog welcomes contrarians. Hell, look at the beating I took over guns in the parks;-) That said, you're very right in how difficult it can be to sway congress-folk. It ain't easy, it ain't pretty, and often it ain't cheap. But, as Messers. Pombo and Burns discovered last month, they can be kicked out of the club if they ignore us too long.

Dec 8th - 16:30pm | Jim Macdonald

I hate to be contrarian again, but please at least take what I say here with a little seriousness. I live in Washington; I've worked with think tanks, I've lobbied in Congress before. Your congressperson will not listen to you beyond having the legislative aid who handles that issue send you a form letter that has been prepared on that issue.

Dec 8th - 14:03pm | Fred Miller

The whole National Park System was created to preserve some of the most beautiful places on Earth. We, as visitors to the Parks, must take a stand on these issues. Write your Congressmen. "Snail-mail", not an e-mail. Tell them to help fix the Park system. Our grandchildren will thank you. We don't need any more MIS-management of our Parks.

Dec 7th - 19:55pm | Snowbird

Kurt, in your article you mentioned "energy corrodors"...I can see it coming, along with the noise, auto and snowmobile pollution, and plus the excessive maddening crowds...it's visual pollution!....that's all we need, some tall ugly looking steel structure, stringing miles of cable lines stretched across the beautiful horizons of our Nationa Parks.

Placing An Economic Value on National Parks

Dec 8th - 10:52am | Snowbird

Kurt, your right on with your comment!

Dec 8th - 06:37am | repanshek

Wait a minute, Parkaholic. This blog and a strong majority of its readers are not ignoring what the current administration and Congress are doing to our park system with their funding and management decisions. Quite the opposite.

Dec 7th - 22:00pm | parkaholic

What is truly unfortunate is that while we beat up organizations that are in this instance telling it like it is, we ignore the trend of our government and the Park Service itself to favor development for financial reasons. The Fee Demo program is working much like our lottery systems in that it generates huge amounts of money that go into publicly popular programs.

Dec 7th - 06:42am | repanshek

Jim, You raise some great points and issues, ones that deserve deeper thought and contemplation, ones that certainly exceed the realm of the national park system.

Dec 7th - 04:19am | Jim Macdonald

If my goal were simply saving wildlife, you might do whatever it takes, the rest of what you screw over to get there be damned. If by saving wildlife, I have to destroy the habitat in which they exist, I'm not interested. If by saving wildlife, I have to contribute to a classist, racist society, then I'm not interested.

Dec 6th - 18:04pm | John

ANY argument is good to help the National Parks. Just use the right one when you talk to the different people. I only need one: I always have a great time when I visit one!!!

Dec 6th - 10:34am | kath

Saw some programs recently on the plight of wildlife in Africa and India. The tigers of India's national parks are being poached to extinction. Same with the elephants in Kenya. The key to stop this, according to the conservationists there, is to convince the local people that having tigers and elephants will bring them prosperity.

Dec 6th - 10:05am | Jim Macdonald

Wow, good discussion...I don't think I can get to it all and do it all justice. But, discussions are good that way, we can meander in and out like a beautiful trail.

Dec 6th - 08:21am | kath

There is nothing wrong with coming up with several different arguments as to why the National Parks are worth funding. Conservationists and park visitors will like the argument over the intrinsic value of the park.

Dec 6th - 08:07am | Alan

I find mention of the "economic value" of a park or other place of natural, scenic or historical value to be very disquieting. I understand the NPCA's direction on this. Big conservation groups often tend to latch onto the economic value of something as a way of buttressing more eco-centric arguments for preservation. But I still find it disquieting.

Dec 6th - 07:46am | repanshek

Jim, I'm not asking folks to criticize NPCA. The organization plays a vital role in protecting the national park system and advancing its goals.

Dec 6th - 06:52am | Jim Macdonald

Kurt, I'm sorry for neglecting to respond to your response on my previous blog post. It wasn't for lack of interest. I'd like to respond here to what you are writing, which is very interesting. I don't think many will be brave enough to criticize the focus of the tact that NPCA uses in defense of the parks.

Dec 5th - 17:25pm | Scott Silver

Kurt, great post and great quotes. Let me add another Leopold quote -- one of my favorites: "One basic weakness in a conservation system based wholly on economic motives is that most members of the land community have no economic value. ... When one of these non-economic categories is threatened, and if we happen to love it, we invent subterfuges to give it economic importance."

Retirees Coalition Asks Congress To Oppose Snowmobiles

Dec 8th - 06:27am | repanshek

Could you logically explain why someone who prefers to minimize pollution in national parks is "elitist"? "Protectionist" I can see, "elitist" I can't. Curiously, on another post you adamantly argue that the Founding Fathers intended taxes to go only towards national defense.

Dec 7th - 22:34pm | Spectre

REAL people don't mind snowmobiles...just elitist enviro-whackos!!!

Dec 5th - 09:49am | Alan Gregory

This is incredible. Study after study after study find that snowmobiles are just plain bad for Yellowstone, its wildlife, its low-impact visitors and the Park Service employees who keep the place running. Yet, here again we have another effort by two block-headed legislators to enshrine the snowmobiling culture. When will real people stand up and just do the right thing?!

The $80 ATB Pass

Dec 8th - 06:15am | repanshek

So if I follow your logic, Spectre, taxes shouldn't be used to pay Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, transportation needs, Postal Service, and all the other federal programs that I'm sure you enjoy?

Dec 7th - 22:39pm | Spectre

May I remind everyone...our founding fathers created federal taxation for one purpose and ONE PURPOSE ONLY...to provide for the defense of this nation (military)...PERIOD! User fees are the best and fairest way to fund our parks.

Dec 6th - 14:54pm | kath

This will be very close to what Canada charges--$77.25. (Adult pass for national parks and historic sites in Canada).

Dec 6th - 14:17pm | kath

California State Parks pass is $125. ostensibly for parking, and that doesn't cover all the parks.

Silence in the Parks

Dec 4th - 17:29pm | Snowbird

Toss in the whisper of the wind blowing through Kings Canyon... you have poetry to my ears.

Bracing For the America The Beautiful Pass

Dec 2nd - 19:24pm | Alan

I have never had qualms about paying a fee to get onto a national wildlife refuge or national park. Or even to use a Forest Service parking area in New Hampshire for the few minutes it took us to view a nearby waterfall.

Dec 1st - 18:05pm | Mike Lommler

Everyone gets benefits from public lands in some way or another, whether it be by direct use or from environmental services. Aside from that, public land conservation is such a small part of the budget--why should the overburdened taxpayer pay for an expensive war from which he is deriving no benefit? The government does things, some people derive benefit, some don't--but we all pay.

Dec 1st - 14:06pm | kath

Charge motorcycles more? Good. I hope it keeps those noisy vehicles out of the parks. They are as much a noise nuisance as snowmobiles. In general, I support the principle that those who use the parks should pay more than the average (and already soaked) taxpayer. Is the money going to stay in the NPS or just go to the general fund?

Crime in the Parks

Dec 1st - 03:42am | Dave

People who have gone through the extensive screening required to obtain a concealed-carry permit shouldn't have to hang up their right to self-defense when they enter a NP. The shrinking law enforcement presence in NPs is all the more reason to not to strip responsible, law-abiding people of their capacity to defend themselves.

Nov 25th - 20:23pm | parkaholic

Currently LEO's have a pretty good situation in that if they run across someone armed in a Park it's a good bet they are involved in some sort of illegal behavior. I wonder how the animals feel about arming the general public? Most tourons are terrified of most fauna....would they be justified in shooting wildlife for their percieved protection?

Interesting Take On Park Visitation Trend

Nov 30th - 18:46pm | Erik

Kurt, Long time reader, first time commentor. The question of declining visitor use is an interesting one and much more complex than most media outlets let on. In the academic literature, there is some evidence to suggest that at the "Crown Jewel" parks, fees have slowed the rate of growth but have not caused a decline in visitation.

Nov 30th - 15:12pm | Steve Sergeant

Just to throw-in additional data points, I interviewed the Ranger for the Mount Whitney District of the Inyo N.F. a couple of months ago. She had these comments on backcountry visitation in her district... STEVE: [00:54] Let's talk about some numbers here. What kind of visitation do you get in the Lone Pine/Whitney Corridor?

The Swamp

Nov 30th - 07:34am | Snowbird

The rich biomass of the Everglades National Park can be further deeply enjoyed by reading: The Swamp by Michael Grunwald's book, and also a book written by Richard Rhodes on the story and life of John James Audubon (read chapter 24). A nice historical touch up after...The Swamp. Excellent reading material Kurt!

Death Valley Showdown

Nov 28th - 17:27pm | Dr. Mike Moore

There is no doubt that there was and is a road through Surprise Canyon. One only needs to look at the town of Panamint City to realize this is true, as there are no other roads that lead into or out of that mineing ghost town.

New York Times On Guns in the Parks

Nov 28th - 13:35pm | Fred Miller

Here is an article that appeared in the Chicago Tribune. It does a much better job of addressing this NYT editorial than I ever could.

In Search of Common Ground

Nov 27th - 11:14am | Snowbird

Kurt, your article "In Search of Common Ground" provokes much needed thought for a more common sense approach in dealing with some are hot button issues in the National Parks. Polarization on these issues will only separate us even more, and cloud the primary purpose which the National Parks should stand for.

Welcome Gun Owners!

Nov 27th - 09:10am | Rick Povich

The folks who seem to think national parks are some sacred ground where the Second Amendment alone should be restricted need to rethink. Let's get something straight: concealed carry permit holders simply do not commit crimes. You won't be raped, robbed or assaulted by a concealed carry person.

Nov 26th - 11:18am | parkaholic

I am having trouble understanding why anyone needs to cary a firearm in the Parks. Most of you agree that you're pretty unlikely to be robbed at gun/knife point. And the idea that we need to protect ourselves from the snakes and mountain lions disturbs me. How many people are injured or killed by these ruthless animals?

Nov 25th - 09:56am | Shelby

Hmm, I suppose my position on this makes me one of those "new Democrats" that have a chance of winning in the South...but not quite. I've done extensive hiking in Arizona and the Blue Ridge Mtns, and I frequently bring my revolver -- not because I'm worried about criminals, though.

Yellowstone Officials Prefer Snowmobiles

Nov 26th - 11:11am | parkaholic

Just a couple of ideas to inspire critical thought and maybe some interesting discussion. First, what percentage of greenhouse gasses are human produced? Second what produces the most noise and pollution, cars in the summer or snowmobiles in the winter? My understanding is they are only allowed to operate in the same areas.

Nov 25th - 18:11pm | Fred Miller

The primary concern here should be the "Preservation of our NPS". This entails trying to ensure good air quality, reducing noise which disturbs the wildlife, and maintaining the fragile trail system. Riding a snowmobile is a lot of fun, I'm sure, but we must do it responsibly.

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