Editor's note: Yellowstone National Park Superintendent Cam Sholly was a recent guest on National Parks Traveler's weekly podcast. While the first half of that conversation centered around the park's response to Covid-19, the rest touched on various aspects of Yellowstone, from the lake trout invasion of Yellowstone Lake and infrastructure needs to ongoing conservation work in the park. Here's a lightly edited portion of that conversation between Sholly and host Kurt Repanshek.

Traveler: One thing that Americans love is Yellowstone National Park and the park system. And you've got such a dynamic ecosystem up there. A lot of conservation issues. What's on the top of your to do list in terms of conservation in the park this year?

Cam Sholly: Well, first off, you know, we set five kind of larger umbrella strategic priorities that we've been focused on. One of those priorities is strengthening the Yellowstone ecosystem and heritage resources. And you know, we've got a lot going on in that priority. First and foremost, I'll mention that 150th anniversary Yellowstone National Park is next year in March. And so I think that's a good time for us to reflect on the past 150 years and then also really work together to determine whether we are taking the right actions today to protect this park for another 150 years.

Yellowstone National Park Superintendent Cam Sholly/NPS, Jacob W. Frank

And keep in mind that only 100 years ago, you know, we killed every wolf in this park. We killed most of the grizzlies, almost wiped out all the bison. You know, we were allowing people to feed grizzly bears 50 years ago. And that was with national park protection, by the way, not a great part of our history, in many ways. And when you look at the ecosystem now, and it's under threat by climate change, by increasing visitation, there's a lot of factors there. But generally speaking, the teams here over the years, especially in the last 30 or 40 years, have done a really good job of putting a lot of the pieces that ecosystem back together.

Last year, we just celebrated the 25th anniversary of the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone. 2020 was a great pup year. Our wolf population grew to about 123 animals. You know, that's a fantastic success story. I think that's a stable population. Got a phenomenal team that has worked on wolves for decades. And, you know, they are helping us determine what types of decisions do we need to make to protect not only wolves, but all the peripheral positive benefits of wolves.

Moving forward, you know about the lake trout issue in Lake Yellowstone. That's a great example of where we, even in the 2000s, were probably a little complacent with a very direct threat to a keystone species in the cutthroat trout. And the team has done a phenomenal job, especially over the last five years, and really doing their best to eradicate lake trout and repopulate the cutthroat. We're putting about $2 million a year into that project. Our science panel says that we need about two to nine years of similar effort to get to a goal, which is the lake trout population being under 100,000.

Traveler: Any estimate what the lake trout population is now? 

Sholly: I think they've been taking out about 400,000 every year. And that's basically a full-blown gill netting operation on Lake Yellowstone for the past five years or so. They've evolved and worked on some really new techniques, and biodegradable wheat pellets that we drop on the spawning sites that take the oxygen out of the water. They're putting GPS trackers in lake trout. So there's kind of a Judas fish that can help us understand better where those spawning sites are, so that we can drop these pellets and have maximum impact.

The cutthroat are coming back. And it's a really important component to this ecosystem. And so we're going to continue to invest a couple million a year, minimally, even when we get to that target of 100,000 or less. There will need to be probably a perpetual investment to protect the cutthroat and keep that lake trout population down.

Some lake trout, such as this one, have radio trackers embedded in them to researchers can find where they spawn/NPS, Jacob W. Frank

You know, 2020, working with the (U.S.) Fish and Wildlife Service and the (U.S.) Forest Service, we set new grizzly bear habitat standards that we're working on implementing. We've got a Northern Range Management Plan that we're going to launch here soon. That's going to help us really kind of understand what the climate-change impacts are on the Northern Range of Yellowstone and how we can take more specific actions to adjust to some of those impacts.

The bison quarantine program that (former Yellowstone Superintendent) Dan Wenk started has really flourished. And as you probably know, we've transferred over 100 bison of brucellosis-free bison to Fort Peck (Indian Reservation) in the last 18 months that's in partnership with the state, with the Department of Agriculture. We've got more (bison) in the (Stephens Creek) facility down there right now. We've got a plan that we're working with the tribes and our partners to expand that program so we get Yellowstone bison onto larger landscapes and higher numbers.

We're focused a lot on invasive species beyond lake trout, especially in aquatic, low aquatic, or terrestrial, and invasives are a big threat to this ecosystem. We have well over 200 terrestrial invasives in Yellowstone. You know, we're trying to get a better strategy and better grip on how do we prevent invasives from coming into the park? For the invasives that are here, how do we do a good job of eradicating them? On the AIS (aquatic invasive species) side, how do we do better, more robust boat inspections? We had over 4,000 boat inspections last year alone, which was much higher than '19, so not only did visitation go up, but people boating went up.

We've got the largest historic preservation project in the country. It's been funded out of the Great American Outdoors Act, which is a rehabilitation of for Yellowstone here, at Mammoth, which is one of the most historic districts in the country, which obviously was the home base for the (U.S.) Calvary back in the 1800s.

I think people can be very proud of the work that's being done here. I am. This team here is second to none and is continuing to really do a great job of of creating the conditions and helping us make decisions that are going to not only keep this ecosystem as stable as possible, but also put us in the best position to address threats that are coming our way.

Traveler:  With the 150th anniversary coming up and trying to get a grip on the health of the park, I know back in the last century as I like to put it, back in the 1990s when Mike Finley was superintendent, the park put out a "state of the park" book that went over just about everything that you were just talking about and rated them on where it was. Is there something similar that the park puts out for the general public to get a look at it, where things stand?

Sholly: We've got an annual report that we're putting out. We should have that released here in the next three to four weeks, I think. It's divided by our strategic priorities. In addition to strengthening the Yellowstone ecosystem, we're working on our workforce. Included in that are housing improvements and morale. How we manage our finances within the most effective organization. There's a lot of things that we're doing in that priority. Strengthening the Yellowstone ecosystem, which we just talked about. Third priority, delivering a world-class visitor experience. Fourth is investing in infrastructure. And then fifth is building coalitions and partnerships.

Park staff is analyzing a number of aspects of Yellowstone, including the visitor experience/NPS

The annual reports are divided into those five areas. So people are going to get a really good idea of all of the great work that's going on and some of those different priorities. And we also are contemplating some type of similar "state of the park" for the 150th. I don't know exactly what that might look like. It's very informative, and I think it does a really nice job of of outlining which species are kind of stable, which species are under threat. I think it's important that we put that into a format that people can read and understand kind of where we are in different areas.

Traveler: I think it'd be a wonderful product to see again. Infrastructure needs: the Great American Outdoors Act bringing money to the park. You have a couple of bridges I think that need to be replaced, no?

Sholly: We got good support from the last administration on a lot of these key priorities. You know, it's a mix. I'd mentioned historic preservation projects, which are really important and core to the mission. Lewis River Bridge down by the south entrance has to be replaced. We've got the Yellowstone River Bridge, out there going towards the Lamar, that will need to be replaced. The Gardiner River Bridge here, just down the road from Mammoth. And those are big deals. I mean, those are $50, $60 million projects.

Traveler: And a lot of disruption.

Sholly: Yeah, it'll be a lot of disruption. But, you know, remember a lot of this, we're doing this road project right now between Tower and Mount Washburn. That road was built in the '30s. And it has not been worked on substantially since the '30s. We closed it down last year, and we've got one more year of (construction). It's going to be a lot better. But yeah, this is road network here, which represents about 1 percent of the park. It was built when there was less than a million people in the park. And same with the parking lots and those types of things. And so, although there's been a lot of good work done over the years, we've got a significant backlog, and I think the Great American Outdoors Act can help us substantially address some of that."

Traveler: Is one of those bridges gonna be tackled this year?

Sholly: Lewis River Bridge is on the list to be awarded this year. We just finished the Pelican Creek viaduct and bridge this year. That was a big multi-year project. And then we're going to be pursuing funding for those other bridges I mentioned. And I mean, they're still there, they're still in OK shape, they're not going to collapse or anything. We still we get them inspected every year and that kind of thing. But they they definitely need attention and quickly.

Traveler: What about campgrounds? There's obviously a lot of demand for camping all of a sudden, and last year was one of the best years that the RV industry has had in a long time, I think. And I know there's pressure from the RV industry to have bigger national park campgrounds to handle some of the bigger RVs and to provide more amenities. Is that something you're grappling with? 

Sholly: Well, I'm not opposed to taking existing developed campgrounds and making them better. I think that's a good thing. And that might include adding RV hookups in or providing more hookups and that kind of thing. I'm not interested in adding more campgrounds or enlarging campgrounds that we do have. There's a good market for that outside of the parks, as well. I think you're going to see some expansion there. I don't think that the solution there is to expand within the park boundaries.

Sholly is not interested in building new campgrounds, or expanding the footprint of existing ones/NPS, Diane Renkin

Traveler: You guys are an interesting animal in that you do touch three different states. And you've got the whole Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem and all the acres that go along that and all the wildlife that goes along with that as well. There's been some talk about charging a conservation fee. You know, some of the outside groups, I think in Wyoming, they've been talking about having visitors to Yellowstone and Grand Teton pay a little extra money to help with conservation of wildlife beyond park boundaries. Is that something you're hearing a lot of?

Sholly: I've had those conversations. I would suggest that while well-intentioned, if there's ever going to be a fee increase, that revenue needs to go to addressing gaps within the park. What we do in the park clearly benefits what happens outside the park. I mean, I think last year between Grand Teton and Yellowstone, it was close to a billion-and-a-half (dollars) in positive economic spending in communities within 60 miles of the parks. That's a big deal.

Our concessioners send $25 million a year in gas tax and sales tax to Wyoming. I would suggest that there's a good conversation to have around what a conservation fee could look like...that cannot be solely on the backs of visitors to national parks that are already providing hundreds of millions of dollars to surrounding counties, communities, and states. And without addressing some of the shortfalls the parks have. ... I don't think the concept is necessarily bad, but it can't just be let's add a fee to the visitors and then make them pay for kind of a an unknown group of priorities outside the park.

Traveler: You know, it's no great secret that I really love Yellowstone. And I'm fortunate enough to live within a half-day's drive, and we try and get up there at least once a year. I really love the lakes, getting out to paddle. Shoshone Lake and the big lake, Yellowstone Lake. My last backpacking trip was down into the Bechler region, which is just a fascinating part of the park that fortunately not too many people seem to go to. What about you? Where do you like to go in the park when you want to get away from it all and clear your head?

Sholly: Well, I did 200 miles in the backcountry last summer. On foot. I did some on a horse, but I did a lot of it on foot. Did a lot of day trips. Did Electric Peak with my son. Went way up into Lamar River, the Lamar River Trail down to Chalcedony Creek and some other places. Went to the Thorofare twice. And, you know, it's the real park. I mean, we've got a lot of challenge. Ninety-nine percent of our challenges, if not more, are within 7 percent of the road corridor in the developed areas in the park. And yeah, that 7 percent deserves attention. Once -- and I did count this -- once I got a mile off the road, I counted nine people. In 200 miles in the backcountry. And so, you know, the vast majority of this park doesn't see a visitor. I really encourage people to get out in the backcountry more. This past year we got around 4 million visitors, or 3.8 million. Around 37,000, 39,000 do overnights in the backcountry campsites. So it's a pretty miniscule number. I think that's a nice thing in some ways. I mean, you can really, in a very short amount of time, get away from the road get away from the noise. And it's it's a pretty special thing to have in the lower 48.

Traveler: It really is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but on one of those Thorofare trips didn't you come back out to find a gasoline tanker truck overturned?

Sholly: Yeah. You know, there's always the kind of the slip back into reality once you come out of the backcountry and figure out what's going on in the world. That's another thing, on connectivity. I know, a lot of folks are interested in the plan for communications and connectivity. We can talk a little bit about that. But, you know, almost all the places that I just talked about, even when you're a mile off the road, you have no form of connectivity, unless you have a satellite (phone). I think that's special. And that's a big part of the experience as well.

Now we need connectivity in certain areas. I mean, you put 4 million people into 350 miles of road in a year. You're going to have public safety issues and, and things that you need quality communications for. And then also from a workforce recruitment/retention standpoint within the developed areas. And I stress within the developed areas. We need quality communications and connectivity. I think some people don't necessarily understand. The conversation right now really isn't about should there be connectivity in the park. First and foremost, you know, I've got a moratorium on adding any tower or cell towers or any substantial, any type of a substantial expansion on communications infrastructure.

As you probably know, we're evaluating a proposal -- we have not made a decision on it -- to bring fiber optic into the park. And I've seen a lot of different comments about the fiber. But what I would ask people is, you look at decades of infrastructure that's been put up on mountaintops in this park. Reflectors have been put in the backcountry. What's the pathway forward? If you wanted to get rid of all of that, you have to agree, and I know some people don't, but there's got to be some level of communications for public safety for workforce, communications, training, things like that.

But what we've done is we've evolved over the decades, and every time technology evolves, we add a new antenna onto a ridge top or or, you know, a new reflector somewhere. How do we get ourselves out of that? Like I said, we haven't made a decision on fiber. And Grand Teton put fiber in last year, it was all put in right alongside the pavement. Your speeds went from 1.5, to 3.0, to 1.5, to three megabyte downloads, to 1,000. And then you also have a pathway to start pulling (down) some of this infrastructure that's been put up over decades, and, you know, reverse that resource degradation that's happened. I don't know which pathway we're going to go there. But you know, I appreciate people's passion on this issue. But we've got to kind of figure out a way to have quality communications within those developed areas, and then also to reverse some of the impacts that we've had in the past.

If people have ideas on how to do that, you know, I'd like to listen to them. I do want to clear up that we're not putting a bunch of more cell towers in corridors. I'm not not looking to even expand into the road corridors.

At 2.2 million acres, it's easy to leave the Yellowstone crowds behind if you're so inclined/Kurt Repanshek file

Traveler: What about visitation at Yellowstone? How much visitation can the park take?

Sholly: It's a good question. I mean, it's a complicated question. I think that you know. First and foremost, we haven't had a strategy on visitor use management. We've done surveys, and we we've done some good things. But we don't have a cogent framework to really give us the information and the actions that are necessary to answer your question.

There is no question there are actions that we need to take in certain areas of the park to address increasingly high visitation and congestion. I want to do that strategically. And that doesn't mean let's wait forever. We established last year a framework to work within which we're working off of now. That framework is kind of based on four categories. What are the impacts of increasing visitation on the resources of this park? Now, that seems like an easy question to answer. But the reality is that 98 percent of the people stay within a half-mile of the road corridor. And so when you actually look at true ecosystem-impacting actions that visitors are having, they're pretty miniscule.

I get people to argue with me all the time on this, 'Oh, you can't have 4 million people in the park and then not have impacts.' I'm not saying there're not impacts, there are. But remember that it's in a very small percentage of the park. That doesn't mean we ignore it. We do things to mitigate and things like that. But you know, we've got to do it in a strategic way, and take actions that are actually going to have meaningful outcomes. This last year, for instance, in that category, where the impacts are on resources, we substantially increased our monitoring. Where are we seeing human waste? Where are we seeing more litter? Where are we seeing, you know, off-road travel, things like that? And where's that happening? Why is it happening? Is it because there's too many visitors because we don't have the right signage, or the right enforcement on a parking lot of the cases. And believe me, there's no way to build ourselves out of this problem.

... Do we understand where those impacts are happening and what our actions need to be? That's category one. Category two is what are the impacts of increasing visitation on our staff, our staffing levels, our infrastructure? You put a million more people a year in this park, flushing toilets, driving on roads, driving off roads, whatever, you're going to have big impacts on staffing and infrastructure. And so that's something that we're measuring that we really haven't before. I just literally yesterday had a conversation about how quickly the pit toilets are filling up from visitors using them. And, you know, it's a reality. The answer is probably not let's go put 20 more pit toilets in.

But that's good information to have as far as an impact. The third one is what's the impact on visitor experience? And as you saw from the visitor survey from 2018, which is the most comprehensive in the country, 70 percent of the visitors are first-time visitors. And, you know, high 80s, low 90s, good to excellent experience rating. There's some frustration in several areas, but generally speaking, people are having a good time. That doesn't mean that's not something to pay attention to. But it was quite different than what people thought, which was we're gonna get this survey back, saying that everything was horrible, and they had to wait in line all the time and all that kind of thing.

The fourth category is what's the impact on the gateway communities, and that's important as well. And so resources, infrastructure and operations, experience, and gateways. Those are the four areas that we're focusing on. And when it gets to how many visitors can be in the park, you know, each one of those things has actions that we can take, to mitigate and to make to do better. And as visitation increases, those actions also have to increase.

The starting conversation, though, is not let's put a reservation system in place or cap visitation right away. We may get to that point. You know, I'm not averse to looking at alternatives and options for when visitation continues to go up. ... We've got this shuttle feasibility study that we're starting this year, which will look at whether a shuttle is feasible between Old Faithful and West Yellowstone. How would that work? How expensive would that be? We're putting these electric shuttles as a pilot at Canyon this year. There'll be a shuttle that runs out of the campground to the village. There'll be one that runs out of the lodge to the village. We think that's got some serious promise for the future. We're doing some pilots at Norris, which has become very busy in regards to actively managing traffic.

... Let's do it strategically, let's communicate. There's a lot of divergent opinions on what that looks like. And you can't just flip a light switch and go, 'Hey, everybody, we're going cap visitation in Yellowstone.' Because while there be a lot of people that support that, there'll be a lot of people that don't. And so we want to be prepared. And we also want to show that we've taken strategic actions based on actual information, data science impacts, to make some of those decisions.

Traveler: There's certainly no shortage of challenges you have before you, but at the same time you also have 2.2 million wonderful acres that it's easy to get lost in and get away from those crowds. You know Cam, we could go on and on and on I'm sure. We'll just have to catch up down the road and revisit some of these other issues. It sounds like you have a full year ahead of yourself and hopefully Covid will disappear and we can all have a good time this year.

Sholly: Thanks for having me on Kurt. And to your listeners, I appreciate the support for the park. We're going to continue to work on articulating what we're doing and why we're doing it with the park's best interests in mind. We'll do our best to explain why we're making decisions that we're making. I look forward to the next time that we can chat.

Traveler postscript: You can listen to the entire interview in this podcast.